Yamaha new products at NAMM 2023... unfortunately no new Montage or new Genos 😢

[keynote]

If you currently look at https://usa.yamaha.com/namm/ , you will see that a special product would be announced today for the electronic keyboard section. Push « latest release » button to see the message

Yeah, I noticed the same thing this morning, although I didn't see that same added text when I browsed a few days ago. Perhaps I overlooked it until now but it looks promising. I live about an hour and a half drive from the Anaheim Convention Center, where NAMM 2023 will be held. They open the doors at 10:00 am Pacific Daylight Time, which is less than two and half hours from now. I can't attend this year, unfortunately, but we'll soon find out what all the commotion is about on the internet and especially YouTube videos from all the various manufacturers, no doubt. Notice, the keyboard Yamaha displays on their NAMM page is the P-S500 under the electronic keyboard section. Not a high-end product, but a nice keyboard. Will Yamaha bring out the headliner now that we've seen the opening act? We'll soon find out. Notice also, if you will, under Synthesizer we see the new CK series, but there is NO added text below the keyboard to indicate a new synthesizer product reveal at NAMM. Oh, well. Time will tell! It will also be interesting to see what other manufacturers have in store. 👍

All the best, Mike 

[soundphase]

It's a New cvp 900

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hardly groundbreaking new tech

[ton37]

As far as I know, the CVP9XX has the basic technology of the Genos , with a larger memory for the piano samples. In other words, can you discover other technologies that indicate that they are not in the current Genos? That could be an indication that there may be further development of the Genos?? (Samples/styles/voices do not count)
Yamaha will make its own platform if it wants to announce something 'big' to the world at time X. 

[AndrewKeyz]

Surprised to see another CVP line so soon. Sure, it's been 4 years but Covid didn't seem to hamper this delay at all if you consider it also took 4 years between the 700 and 800 series. And the 800 series was already based on the Genos engine anyway.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

X

[DerekA]

Apart from the piano samples, the only 'technoclogy' I can see in the new CVP that's not in the Genos is the built-in bluetooth adaptor.

[Strideplayer]

Here's the list of new Yamaha products that will be showcased at NAMM 2023 at the Anaheim Convention Center in Anaheim, CA on April 13-15, just a few days away. Disappointing for arranger keyboardists and traditional workstation users, since there will be no update to either the Montage or the Genos, unfortunately. PS: The synthesizer that was talked about from Yamaha's March 1st newsletter is the new CK line of keyboards. So I guess the MODX+ addition that was released months ago doesn't count?

https://usa.yamaha.com/namm/ You will probably need to scroll down a bit to see the new products.

All the best, Mike

Another PS: So the next real opportunity for Yamaha to make Waves 2.0 a reality will be in October/November 2023, at the Yamaha Keyboard Club event in the U.K. or NAMM 2024 on January 25-28 also in Anaheim, CA. Oh, well.   

I dreamed that the new Genos was the star of the NAMM show, and that all old Genos's were on sale at half price.

Unfortunately, then I woke up,
Strideplayer 

[keynote]

A lot of well known music instrument/pro audio manufacturers are absent from NAMM 2023. Before COVID-19 hit the scene, NAMM was doing pretty good, although not as good as a decade or more ago when NAMM was really the talk of the town and in fact the entire world, as was Musikmesse, which folded just recently most likely because of the global pandemic, supply chain(s) crises, economic instability, and many manufacturers who are now moving toward a strictly online sales and distribution model. YouTube may end up becoming the new online version of NAMM which would be a huge disappointment for musicians of all stripes who like to roam around looking at and playing all the new gadgets, keyboards, guitars, etc. Plus, there used to be world renowned musicians and singers who would show up and people got to meet and hear them play instruments/sing, and it was a real thrill for everyone involved. If you've noticed, in some of the early videos showing the inside of the Anaheim Convention Center it's a lot less populated and quite frankly a lot of empty space of nothing to speak of. Btw, Yamaha promised a 'Synthesizer' but so far it's a no-show. The CK88/61 are NOT synthesizers, if you get my drift. But there are two more days left of the NAMM trade show, so you never know. A Genos2 is definitely out of the question, since the CVP-900 is the headliner in the keyboard segment, I would imagine. I think the Montage and Genos continue to sell fairly well, so as a matter of principle, if it ain't broke, why fix it? Or, in this case, upgrade it? Yamaha is sitting on piles of cash apparently and if both keyboards continue to sell well and beat expectations we might not see a new Montage or Genos until... [your guess is as good as mine], but possibly not for many moons. In plain English, several years. I hope I'm wrong, btw. PS: If Yammie waits too long, Korg and Ketron and Roland??... could end up being the big winners in Yamaha's slow to market business strategy that was adopted just recently as you may or may not know. You snooze, you lose, as the saying goes. I will try to stay positive, so we'll see what happens at the Yamaha UK Keyboard Club extravaganza event in November and then NAMM 2024 shortly thereafter on January 25-28 once again in Anaheim, California.

All the best, Mike     

[pjd]

Apart from the piano samples, the only 'technology' I can see in the new CVP that's not in the Genos is the built-in bluetooth adaptor.

I basically agree with Derek. A few additions:

With CVP, Yamaha tries to recreate the actual live experience of playing an acoustic instrument. If someone wants the best digital piano experience, doesn't need certain arranger features and has the DoReMe to buy one, I recommend CVP.

Yamaha designs the acoustic audio system and uses binaural sampling to make the player feel like they are seated at, playing and hearing an acoustic piano. The CVPs also have Grand Expression Modeling and Virtual Resonance Modeling (below); both take a lot of additional DSP power which Genos does not have.

If it's any consolation, Genos internal memory is much larger. :-)

I love CVP. Wish I had one -- pj


Binaural Sampling: Records the sound of the piano by using specialized microphones installed in the position of the player's ear so that they capture locational information and other nuances discerned by the human ear.

Grand Expression Modeling: Any variation in the intensity and speed of your touch, and you'll hear a nuanced difference in tone, one that's almost identical to a grand piano.

Virtual Resonance Modeling: Performs realtime reproductions of the resonance created by the strings and body of the instrument. In a grand piano, sound resonates throughout the body of the instrument, producing a rich reverberation that envelops the listener in sound. This phenomena is reproduced perfectly in the Clavinova through Virtual Resonance Modeling (VRM). It calculates the various states of the strings for each of the 88 notes on the keyboard, from one instant to the next, and timing and depth of damper pedals pressed.

[usaraiya]

Well, Yamaha decided to release the flagship Clavinova CVP-909GP costing $21,000 @ the 2023 NAMM show rather than the $6999 Genos 2, which makes good business sense, I presume, as it provides an opportunity for the available Genos' to sell (providing revenue), before the release of the extended due successor to Genos, speculatively, in October, probably showcased by Peter Bartmanns and Martin Harris at the annual Yamaha gathering in November.
The new CVP will also add a revenue stream to the company, which is good.
I expect the new Genos 2 to be out by the 1st Qtr of 2024, and I am looking forward to it!

Uday

[keynote]

If anyone is interested, John Fogerty showed up at NAMM 2023 yesterday, which is an encouraging sign that NAMM could make a comeback if more big names start showing up and interacting with the public and if manufacturers don't abandon their customers and potential customers to the wolves by relegating most if not all of their sales and distribution to online only. Yamaha in particular said in their Waves 2.0 outline they wanted to obtain a more personal involvement and closer relationship with their customers, which is commendable. What makes NAMM so special is now the public gets to attend and experience the excitement, new products, and co-mingle with the various employees and personnel from all the different manufacturers and watch live band entertainment, etc., which can be a real boon in the way of additional sales of the various products on display.

All the best, Mike

PS: Day two is about three hours away, so it will be interesting to see what transpires today. Btw, perhaps the CK-61/88 is Yamaha's new 'synthesizer' product, even though it's not really a synthesizer in the true sense of the word.

[pjd]

Yamaha in particular said in their Waves 2.0 outline they wanted to obtain a more personal involvement and closer relationship with their customers, which is commendable.

Hi Mike --

Well, after my stunning endorsement of CVP (where is my kick-back, Yamaha?), I'm going to trash them. 

I have read these statements about "involvement and closer relationship with their customers" in their annual reports -- for years.

I don't know what kind of smoke they have blown up the CEOs pipeline. (I'm trying to be polite.) There is engagement this, and engagement that. Frankly, I haven't seen any change in their public face and presentation. The irony drips from their annual reports...

Where is the direct engagement with PSR Tutorial Forum? After speaking with some Yamaha USA folks, yes, they definitely know about this forum. [And they are nice folks, BTW.]

Yamaha corporate is still an "island" as far as I can observe.

Sorry to break bad on Yamaha, but enough of this empty corporate-speak -- pj

[tyrosrick]

Glad I bought my Genos earlier this year, enjoying all the features/sounds now, than waiting for the Genos 2 no-show at NAMM.

[Divemaster]

Well, Yamaha decided to release the flagship Clavinova CVP-909GP costing $21,000 @ the 2023 NAMM show rather than the $6999 Genos 2, which makes good business sense, I presume, as it provides an opportunity for the available Genos' to sell (providing revenue), before the release of the extended due successor to Genos, speculatively, in October, probably showcased by Peter Bartmanns and Martin Harris at the annual Yamaha gathering in November.
The new CVP will also add a revenue stream to the company, which is good.
I expect the new Genos 2 to be out by the 1st Qtr of 2024, and I am looking forward to it!

Uday

Well sure as hell I can't see great big queues of people lining up to part with 21 THOUSAND
Dollars. That's £17,000 pounds sterling uk. In a worldwide recession..... Yeah right!

Ignore the top end keyboard market at your peril Yamaha!

Not for me anyway , but I have already bought another SX700. It will stay in it's box until my current one dies.... or I do... My guess is that they will bring out some horrible half synth, half arranger thing like a posh E473....Nooooo. That won't do at all.

But I could be hugely interested in this new Hammond XK4 keyboard to add to my SX! Looks and sounds awesome!

Step up or step down Yamaha. The world will spin on!


Keith

[mikf]

It's not unusual to pay much more than this for a half decent grand piano, and that's more the competition for the top CVP.  Yamaha make vastly more revenue in this market than portable keyboards, and probably much better margins so you could say that the top end keyboard market is exactly where Yamaha are placing their focus.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Mike :

Correct : Classical piano's are mostly more expensive.

IMHO most home keyboard players might go for a new high end arranger instead of a CVP 900 serie mainly because of the high new present Clavinova pricing, I guess.

If the new Yamaha high end arranger ( Genos2 ) enducer price will become approx. USD 7,000 ( like some members here seem to be expecting ), even then some people might postpone their original plans or might even decide to go for the competition.
Time will tell.

Best regards, JH

[mikf]

IMHO most home keyboard players might go for a new high end arranger instead of a CVP 900 serie mainly because of the high new present Clavinova pricing, I guess.

I doubt that. CVPs and arrangers customers are different, CVP customers are generally looking for a piano that can also be played a bit like an arranger, not an all singing all dancing arranger that can be played a bit like a piano, which is where Genos sits. I think the DGX is the low cost CVP alternative, but they could drop to a 905, or find a good used 600 series, if price is the issue.
Not only are acoustic pianos more expensive, but Yamaha sells way more of them. You might not be able to buy the stool for a Yamaha Bosendorfer for the price of a good arranger.  If you were Yamaha top management which market would be dearest to your heart?

Mike

[BogdanH]

...
Not only are acoustic pianos more expensive, but Yamaha sells way more of them...

-I've been searching for that info, but found nothing.

And here my thoughts and guesses...
Yamaha's "standard" classical pianos prices start at about 35000€ (CFX-es aren't sold in mass, I guess). That is, one classical piano is the same price as: 1xGenos(=5000€) + 5xSX900(=11000€) + 8xSX700(=11000€) + Others (=8000€). Now we might think "selling one classical piano is the same money as a bunch of keyboards.. so why even bother with keyboards?".
It probably depends from country to country, but I still believe that it's easier to sell a "bunch of keyboards of various types", than that's the case with classical pianos. I mean, every smallish city has some musical instruments store with keyboards on display and on stock. It's not that easy to find a store with classical pianos, though.

And then there's another thing. Making a classical piano is very labor intensive. I've seen "Visit at Yamaha factory" documentary and all pianos are in majority hand made. Additionally, very big area is needed for storing wood, painting, assembling, testing and storing finished products. What I'm saying is, making piano costs a lot of money.
Keyboards on the other hand, are mass products: once production is started, making a keyboard is very cheap (especially if assembled in 3rd country). And so in my opinion, percentage profit is much bigger than that's the case with classical piano production.
Yes, being 10-times more expensive, amount of money (total income) is much bigger for classical pianos -but so are the costs.

-as said, just my thoughts.
Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Mike :

In a multinational company like Yamaha all departements need to be individual profit centres.
They have many of these different departements and all of them together make the company like it is today.
In fact it is a chain of links.
All of them are individually responsible for Yamaha's total welfare. IMHO.

It is up to the top management to control the forecast, turnover, costs and profit of the entire company,  24/7, IMHO.

JH

[mikf]

Bogdan
I researched this some time ago but didnt keep the numbers. It's was quite hard to get a handle on arrangers sales, because of they way they segment the market. But I remember that in peak years Yamaha sold well over 200,000 acoustic pianos. Probably closer to half that now. Yamaha sell 300 Bosendorfer pianos alone per year, and since they cost between $100,000 and $200,000 each, that by itself would be way more than TOTL arrangers.
They do also sell a lot of digital keyboards, but digital pianos are a very large part of that, much more than arrangers. So their total piano sales - acoustic and digital - are massive. Genos and SX arrangers are tiny compared to this. I think I speculated that a year of top end arranger sales might hardly equate to 1 week of acoustic and digital piano sales for Yamaha
And I am sure margins are also much better on traditional instruments, because a dealer told me that online competition drove margins on portable keyboards razor thin. This why in most North America cities it's pretty easy to find a dealership where you can try a whole range of pianos, and CVPs, but hard to find a Genos.

Mike

[keynote]

Acoustic piano sales have fallen substantially here in the USA. In 2005 there were about 95,000 acoustic pianos sold in the US. Not sure how many were Yamaha-specific but as we know Yamaha is the largest maker and seller of acoustic pianos in the world. But in 2021 (latest statistics) there were only around 29,000 acoustic pianos sold in the US. Quite a drop and it might be due to going out of style plus the availability and vast improvement of digital pianos like the Yamaha CVP series which are in most cases a lot less expensive and don't take up nearly as much room.

All the best, Mike

[mikf]

Don't think there is any doubt that digital pianos are now good enough to be taking sales from acoustic pianos. And you don't have to go to the level of a CVP. Some much more modestly priced digital are very good. Even piano teachers are often advising parents to start their kids on modestly priced digital. I see them now as one piano market, but Yamaha and the industry divides it based on acoustic and digital.
Mike

[AndrewKeyz]

-I've been searching for that info, but found nothing.

And here my thoughts and guesses...
Yamaha's "standard" Classical pianos prices start at about 35000€ (CFX-es aren't sold in mass, I guess). That is, one Classical piano is the same price as: 1xGenos(=5000€) + 5xSX900(=11000€) + 8xSX700(=11000€) + Others (=8000€). Now we might think "selling one Classical piano is the same money as a bunch of keyboards.. so why even bother with keyboards?".
It probably depends from country to country, but I still believe that it's easier to sell a "bunch of keyboards of various types", than that's the case with Classical pianos. I mean, every smallish city has some musical instruments store with keyboards on display and on stock. It's not that easy to find a store with Classical pianos, though.

And then there's another thing. Making a Classical piano is very labor intensive. I've seen "Visit at Yamaha factory" documentary and all pianos are in majority hand made. Additionally, very big area is needed for storing wood, painting, assembling, testing and storing finished products. What I'm saying is, making piano costs a lot of money.
Keyboards on the other hand, are mass products: once production is started, making a keyboard is very cheap (especially if assembled in 3rd country). And so in my opinion, percentage profit is much bigger than that's the case with Classical piano production.
Yes, being 10-times more expensive, amount of money (total income) is much bigger for Classical pianos -but so are the costs.

-as said, just my thoughts.
Bogdan

I think you are forgetting about the much cheaper uprights such as the B1, B2, B3, U1, U3 and YUS series.
My guess is Yamaha sells at least twice as many uprights than grands.

You can have a B2 for close to the price of a Genos. I bet the B series alone outsells the Genos. Certainly the B + U series does.

Not many people will have space for a grand.

I doubt it actually costs Yamaha more to make a B2 than a Genos when you look at the bigger picture, despite the labor intensity and extra materials used. Genoses are made in China and B2s in Indonesia which on average has 25% lower manufacturer costs. The upfront cost of developing the Genos software will have to be paid back through the later sales (and subsequently re-using that stuff in the SX keyboards etc).

An upright will still be seen as a great piece of furniture that will last decades with often parents buying one for children (the second hand market is massively more active, but I bet when many people see a Yamaha upright for £5,000 or less + free delivery + warranty (thus less hassle) they may just buy it new.

A Genos, surely is seen as a bit of expensive music tech that only nerds like us will enjoy / understand the point of and will last 10 years max in most households.

Even if you want to focus fully on cost by unit vs sales figures and where Yamaha should thus focus its resources, one, I'm sure, would conclude a follow up to the P515 is going to be more lucrative than a Genos 2 for Yamaha.

Indeed, as pointed out sales figures of pianos have dropped off, but I expect they have of organs / keyboards / arrangers also. The DAW + endless instrument plugins growth (via the internet) over the last 20 years alone must have taken a massive bite out of these markets. The only saving grace probably being digital slab pianos do well and which is why we see such a variety and quick release of these across all brands and none abandoning them (unlike Roland with arrangers/keyboards has done).

Google trends indicates there are almost as many lookups for "Yamaha Genos" and "Yamaha U1" across the world with the U1 staying more consistent over the last 5 years and the Genos waning off, which is to be expected.

Also the likes of U1 will hold its value longer than a Genos which you probably can't even give away easily in 10 years time. Except for the few nostalgia nerds (like many of us here), who the hell would want it at that point? It's just an old inconvenient piece of tech which will no longer be supported almost anywhere online. A nice piano however...

All these factors will play a role in people deciding what to spend thousands on when buying an instrument.
I thus think for 95% of the people in the market for a new instrument with piano keys on it: an acoustic or digital piano is a more wise investment than a complicated arranger.
Thus Yamaha is and will spend its resources accordingly.

[rikkisbears]

Hi, 2 things that made me decide not to buy a cvp, first up I live in a rural area, something goes wrong, no one to fix it, I would have to get it shipped to the city. Very expensive exercise.
  Secondly, unlike a keyboard which are relatively simple to sell, a piano wouldn't be.  I'm unfortunately one of those people, a new model is announced, I want it.😀. So eventually when there's a sx900 replacement announced, I'll no doubt want one. Sx900, should not have too many problems selling it.  To give me the 88 notes I wanted I had an es920 piano connected via midi.
PA5x was announced round same time as I was trying to decide between a CVP, Genos , and Korg.  Cvp I ruled out for above reasons,  Genos mainly because I thought there might be a replacement any day and basically because I really like my sx900, so went for Korg 88 note.  I managed thru stroke of luck to get it for less than the 76 note version, plus I was able to sell my es920, didn't need  2 pianos.

As  good as the cvp's may  sound, it's an electronic instrument.  Electronics  tend to devalue a lot.

I had a Yamaha baby grand for about 15 years, when I sold it  I got more than what hubby paid for it, despite it getting to the stage of it possibly needing new strings.  The ocean and salt air where we lived was starting to take its toll on it according to my piano tuner.

I don't think my Yamaha clp would have gone up in price .

[BogdanH]

All very reasonable thoughts and observations.
I believe we always see the situation from our own perspective, depending on where we live. I realized, that pianos are more "a thing" in US, where an upright piano is also a part of interior decoration -that's quite rare in Europe nowadays (at least where I live). And as Mike (keynote) pointed out, similar trend starts to happen in US. Meanwhile, digital pianos became more than good enough for home use and nobody buys a Classical piano for grandchildren anymore.

About margins on keyboards... Genos started at price of 6000+€ and is now sold for 4400€ (still with a profit, of course) -now imagine the margins.

Bogdan

[mikf]

Actually the biggest market for pianos today is China, not Europe or  USA.  And regardless of the type, Yamaha still regard pianos as their core business. Yamaha have about 40% of the world market for pianos, and combined Yamaha revenues from pianos - traditional and digital - are of the order of $750 million.
If they sell 1000 Genos in a year, and I'm not sure they sell that many, that is still only $5 million. So in the big picture things like high end arrangers are small fry. Their main benefit might be driving technology ahead that they can then more cheaply leverage in lower end models, and maintaining the perception of being brand and technology leaders. The consequences of losing 10% of the TOTL arranger market to smaller brands like Korg or Ketron are insignificant compared to losing even 2% of the piano market share to other brands. So the idea we see stated on this forum that Yamaha are losing sleep over not having a Genos2 in the market to compete is probably a non issue for top Yamaha management. Cash cow core businesses need good margins AND high volume. One or the other doesn't fly. And it is not uncommon in large corporations for the bulk of top management to have come through the cash cow core business, so they often have great affinity for that traditional manufacturing driven business, with its massive facilities and huge employee base. 
Among Yamaha's stated business objectives is to drive more into the mass mini keyboard market, I am guessing by that they mean portable. And to leverage adding technology to their core piano business. I would guess that covers CVP type instruments, Disklaviers etc. and that may explain why they are pushing a new CVP model, even if it doesn't seem much more advanced than the previous series.
All this info can be gleaned from their Annual Report published in March this year.

Mike

[Amwilburn]

*snip*

About margins on keyboards... Genos started at price of 6000+€ and is now sold for 4400€ (still with a profit, of course) -now imagine the margins.

Bogdan

I'd love to know where that is, because here the cost has crept up slightly since launch (only 10% more, 5 years later). It's never come down, at least not in Canada. Nor has the margin ever changed.

I can also tell you that 6000 euros is susprising; at $8800 canadian you could buy a really good CVP. (4400 euros is *exactly* what it is now in Canada though; and like I said 5 years ago was about 10% less.)

[vlbrgt]

mikf:
... If they sell 1000 Genos in a year, and I'm not sure they sell that many,  ....

Do you mean that Yamaha does not sell more than 1000 Genos workstations (worldwide) ?
If that is true then I am the owner of a collectors item.
I think there are a few 0's missing.

Regards
Etienne

[mikf]

I have no idea so I guessed 1000 per year not 1000 total. Even if it is double or treble that it makes little difference to the assumptions.
Mike