Genos successors wish LIST (GENOS2)

[EileenL]

Here again I have to agree with you Toril. Even when people are asking for extra's they still trash the keyboard for not having them or being full of bugs and it does get tiresome as I thought this forum was to help people with problems not run the keyboards down.

[woeper]

I want to complain about the Genos. But then i must be able to buy one.

I,ve to wait to the end of september

[Amwilburn]

  Well, maybe I was a bit harsh, but I reacted to the last sentence here. The poster says that the Korg is much mor practical, and that he considers selling the Genos. This is a Yamaha forum. I am a bit tired of Genos bashers! No keyboard ever has got so much bashing. Here I go again...

Hi Toril, FWIW, not bashing either, they both have good things (The Korg has the nicest feeling keys, and the all metal construction is nicer, and I like that the multipads show you on screen which ones are currently active, and all the styles sound good out of the box because of really good drum samples... even better than T5, but not Genos). Korg also had touchscreens first, and the current PA1000's have HDMI output for video. No converter needed.

FWIW though, comparing the sounds: Both have great drum sounds, but the older Yamaha samples from when they switched over the PSR3000 were a bit flat, *all* of the Korg drums sound good, Strings: synth strings Korg has a slight edge, but Yamaha acoustic strings sound *much* more realistic. Guitars: Korg finally copied the Super Articulated guitars with their fret noises and body taps (Yamaha has had that since Tyros 2 in 2006, Korg didn't implement until 2015 with PA4x), and their nylon guitars do sound a bit more natural now. But Yamaha's steel guitars have the edge. Distortion guitars, both are good (Yamahas sound more real due to being sample based, but Korg's have the ability to do pinched harmonic squeals, something I've been wanting on a Yamaha since they introduced Super Articulation). Korg also copied the S.Art 2 phrasing of saxophones (which Yamaha has had since 2008, tyros 3, Jazz sax, etc) but it doesn't behave as intuitively; when I hit the phrase button on the Korg PA, it doesn't automatically switch to monophonic phrasing... I'll actually get the gliss as well as the note I'm playing *at the same time*. Yamaha's is definitely better. Yamaha's acoustic bass sounds are the best, but the 'punch' electric basses are better on Korg (you can *feel* the thump in your chest). Korg also has the edge on synths and Hammonds, especially pad synths. Both pianos are good. For horns, Yamaha has the edge.


However, saying "Much more functional" is questionable. A few of the reasons for Yamaha's popularity:

1) Ease of use (you can simply look up new styles on a USB stick on a Yamaha... on the Korg? You have to individually copy and paste each style from your usb to install it, can't access externally from the USB stick.) And yes, there is a mass copy function, but it doesn't fill out all the memory slots (the Korg uses a fixed array with User 1, 2, 3, then Favourites 1-12? I think, as individual folders). If you use a mass copy, it only fills out as many as the source directory (so if the source only had 5 styles, it'll only copy those 5 styles into the Korg user folder then erase the rest, wherin you have to individually install each style individually).
Yes you have to *install* styles!

2) Sample library: Yamaha's format was easy enough that anyone can make samples using wav files, and so there are many, many sources, as well as Yamaha themselves have many, many packs. Korg's sample packs are limited in scope (Indian, Oriental, that's about it, and they're really pricey. $250-$400 USD depending on your model), and it's difficult to program for so there are many sample producers out there, and the 3rd party ones available are pricey (and almost all exclusively dedicated to Persian/Oriental sample packs) as well. Additionally, when you install samples to the instrument, there is a fixed number of sample slots... so it almost doesn't matter how much sample ram space the Korg instrument has, the number of samples limits the number of importable sounds. You can put *bigger* samples in, but not more. Yamahas allow for many, many smaller samples or fewer larger samples, depending on what you want. But no Chinese, no Indonesian, no Italian, Celtic, Country music, etc, sample packs.

3) No registrations on Korg. So my demos with switching arrangements on the fly simply aren't possible there.

Mark

[Toril S]

Thanks Mark. Very interesting!

[sunny]

GENOS PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONS :

1) OVERALL SOUND : Sound is warm but not Bright. Brighter sound needed like Tyros5.

2) KEYBOARD LENGTH IS NOT CONVENIENT ;  61 Note keyboard is preferred.

3) NO INDIAN VOICES & NO INDIAN DRUM KIT : All indian voices available in Yamaha MONTAGE & MODX keyboards and Indian Drum kit to be included in Genos replacement keyboard.

4) NO SEAMLESS SOUND SWITCHING (CUTTING OF VOICES ) : Voices are cutting off when Registrations are changed, Seamless Sound Switching (SSS) is highly needed like Montage keyboard.

5) ORGAN & CHOIR SECTION TO BE IMPROVED : Hauptwerk Pipe Organ Voices and Wurlitzer Electro Static Reed Organ and Farfisa,COMBO Organ voices needed.

6) REGISTRATIONS SAVING PROBLEM :

(A) During live performance, When Registrations are saved from one bank to another, pop up message asking to save or not, this is not convenient during live performance. Registrations need to be saved immediately like earlier PSR-740 keyboard without any pop up message. Two options needed for saving Registrations 1) Direct Registrations saving one bank to another without pop up message 2) Registrations saving with pop up message.

(B) Last used Registrations voices to resume automatically, when the keyboard is turned off and on.

(C) Registrations buttons to be increased to 16 . Assignable buttons also to work like Registrations buttons.

7)  MICROPHONE SECTION :

     (A) Dual Microphone inputs needed.

    (B)  Master Reverb,Chorus effects to be applied for Microphone sound when Microphone output is routed through Sub Outputs.

    (C) Feedback destroyer function needed.

    (D) Vocal Harmony button to be always off on default.

8 ) ASSIGNABLE FOOT PEDAL FUNCTION  : Foot pedal to control Song Volume and DEMO volume.

9) STYLE (ACCOMPANIMENT) VOLUME :

    (A) Sub-Woofer Output : A new Separate sub woofer output needed for Accompaniment(Style) voice.

    (B) Accompaniment (style) volume need to be controlled with pedal also.

    (C) Accompaniment (Style) output to be assigned to sub outputs without any missing of Master Reverb and Chorus effects.
   

10) STYLE (Accompaniment ) Volume changes MIDI Message :
Accompaniment (Style) should generate MIDI messages, so that Accompaniment (Style) volume can be controlled by using external MIDI volume pedal.

11) AFTER TOUCH EFFECT WITH PEDAL :  After Touch effect to be applied via Pedals,since some players don't like to shake the key or applying pressure on keyboard.

12) INDIVIDUAL UPPER OCTAVE BUTTONS :
Individual upper octave buttons needed for R1,R2 and R3.

13) NEW TRILL TONE/ TREMOLO EFFECT BUTTON AND LAST NOTE HOLD BUTTON : New Trill button needed for adding Trill tone effect to Dulcimer, Mandolin,Santoor, Banjo, Rabab etc voices and a new  "Hold Button " needed to hold last played note like left hold button.

14) MULTIPADS : Multipads buttons (1-4) to be off when pressing on each button again.

15) REGISTRATIONS & FREEZE BUTTON : Registration button &Freeze button to hold Master Reverb, Chorus, Master Equalizer and Compressor settings.

16) TEMPO SPEED CONTROL ON DISPLAY :
Style tempo speed control to be controlled on Display with digital slider with touch response.

17) AUDIO RECORDING :

(A) Extra separate track recording for Microphone needed.

(B) Separate manual volume slider to control Line In (Audio In) volume.

18) WI-FI SHARING OF AUDIO RECORDINGS :
Audio songs recorded to be shared through Mobile phone through Wi-Fi.
   
19) PDF FILES DISPLAY :
PDF song sheets to be displayed on the Display.

20) 8 PIN MINI DIN CONNECTOR PROBLEM :  8 Pin Mini Din Connector pins are getting damaged, replace 8 Pin Mini Din Connector with normal instrument cables for external speaker system.


Sunny.

[nonchai]

My list...

For any arranger workstation to be classed or marketed as suitable for use by a composer, songwriter or producer working in a home studio or composer production suite with a DAW - here are what I consider the MINIMUM requirements for a hardware arranger to be usable SEAMLESSLY and thus workflow wise, productively...... WITH A DAW....

Firstly I will state the two areas content-wise which need to be seamlessly accessible or shareable by the DAW user:

A ) MIDI ( song and style data, along with program change messages )
B) Internal sounds used by the hardware by the MIDI above.

So how to support A ) seamlessly ?

    1 ) Allow the arranger MIDI data area used for internal sounds, as well as on any external memory sticks - to be accessed directly by allowing user data to be presented to the DAW computer as en external drive over USB.

2 ) failing 1 ) provide some kind of app on Mac/pc that via some proprietary means lets a user on a computer access data on the arranger AS IF IT WERE A HARD DRIVE....

having to continually swop USB thumb drives between arranger and computer is simply not good enough for the purposes being discussed here.


So how to support B ) seamlessly ?

   1 )  The arranger needs to support outputting digital audio over USB for at least 16 stereo channels.   

        The top workstations a( NAUTILUS, MONTAGE, FANTOM )  do this already.  It requires that the Arranger has onboard a suitable chip for example from XMOS -

      https://www.xmos.ai/usb-multichannel-audio/.   



2 ) In order to have total-recall of patch choices when using instruments in an arranger piped over USB into a DAW project its not enough - and impractical - to always have to include PC+MSB+LSB midi data in ones MIDI tracks.  So instead - two of the leading workstation brands - MONTAGE and KRONOS/NAUTILUS provide dedicated VST/AU plugins which when hosted in a DAW project, allow internal sounds and patches to be selected from the keyboard and piped into the DAW project.
But these plugins go further. Whenever the DAW project containing any of these plugins on one or more MIDI tracks is saved - a record of the actual patches used on the track gets saved into the plugin internal save-state. And whence the DAW project is reopened - say on a different day - the plugin sends the appropriate messages back to the connected keyboard in order that the same instruments that were used when the project was saved - get called up again.

Such "total recall" really is a time saver.

See here for how Yamaha and KORG themselves do this in MONTAGE and KRONOS.  A top end workstation arranger purported to be usable as a composition, song or production tool in a home/professional studio or composing suite- needs to have this functionality too.

--- How montage supports DAWs

https://youtu.be/11ccxrU2QzY

"MONTAGE Connect is a convenient tool which lets you transfer data between your computer and the MONTAGE. Song data created on the MONTAGE can be transferred to your computer and the Performance data edited on the MONTAGE can be saved as a file (.X7B) on the computer. MONTAGE Connect, based on Steinberg's VST3 technology, works as a VST3 plug-in with the Cubase series. The MONTAGE Connect also works as the same way as other VST instrument software, allowing you to save the edited settings of the MONTAGE, or use them for another project. MONTAGE Connect also works as an AU plug-in. For AU compatible DAW software, refer to the separate Release Notes. It can also be used as standalone software."

https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/montage_connect_mac.html

--- How KORG supports DAWs

https://www.korg.com/uk/news/2021/0916/

https://youtu.be/wS2L97iBiO8

[Pityus]

Do you have information about the new Genos 2 instrument?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9HIxjZ47oE

[mixermixer]

Do you have information about the new Genos 2 instrument?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9HIxjZ47oE

It's a photoshop fake.

[pjd]

It's a photoshop fake.

This Romanian site is notorious for faked click bait. 

Please, enough! There are already several hi-jacked threads about this rubbish.

-- pj

[nonchai]

.......
My wish is that Yamaha does what Apple did with Logic Pro.  Make Yamaha arrangers, fit hand in glove with Cubase.  AND GIVE GENOS owners a 'cross grade' price to upgrade to top of the Cubase line. .....

Yamaha had the temerity to claim or market the Genos as a "Workstation" and as something of use to not only one man band live performers ( of covers mostly ) but - SINGERS, SONGWRITERS and COMPOSERS or PRODUCERS - as I recall..

But as it is currently - with its bare bones CHORD LOOPER as it stands - and no direct USB AUDIO connection to a computer - its hard to see it as such.

But the CHORD LOOPER is the very feature that could act as a crossover thing that really begins to expand upon use cases. As a backing track player whose chord progressions come from in-the-moment improvisations or explorations.

The whole bridge between whats called "DAW-less" ie hardware only - and "in-the-box" ( ie everything done in a DAW ) needs to be explored.

Currently in the producer/composer world - even the most powerful arranger-backing track PLAYERS such as BAND IN A BOX - aren't used much and hardware arrangers considered a no no or a toy - but we all know that sonically they  are much much better these days and in any case use the same underlying tech as the big boy proper workstations.

Things that could act as glue between say Cubase and Genos - would be if Cubase had built in arranger features of some sort - it does - like so many workstations - go half way- in that one can set up pattern players and arpeggiators to follow the Chord track - but just like the same sort of thing in workstations-  it goes so far and no further.

Personally I think ( and have said so - with an outpouring of naysaying on the BIAB forum ) it would be a great thing if YAMAHA were to buy PG Music - or at least the rights to BIAB - and then use its core IP inside a future version of Cubase.

Commercially - this would if done right - open the way to much richer styles and content - for Yamaha. And the internal sounds for any Cubase arranger feature could use a modified HALION - one which - (at last ) would support switching sounds via PC LSB *and* MSB...

I like just using a hardware arranger totally without a computer-  its very freeing - but if used as something to come up with musical ideas for composing or songwriting there just has to be a seamless path from that to a DAW.

[Ingar]

Please Yamaha...No more  printet buttons on any keyboard.

[tyros2009]

My wish: ability to change parameters (voices, volume, effects) of each track of ANY section of a style without effecting other section AND option to let the change applicable to all sections.
Example; increase volume of the Phr1, Phr2 for Intro2 without effecting Intro3 and the other 3 endings.
On previous S and Tyros models, the example above with change volume of Phr1/2 for ALL sections. That's  very undesirable.

[Joe H]

My wish: ability to change parameters (voices, volume, effects) of each track of ANY section of a style without effecting other section AND option to let the change applicable to all sections.
Example; increase volume of the Phr1, Phr2 for Intro2 without effecting Intro3 and the other 3 endings.
On previous S and Tyros models, the example above with change volume of Phr1/2 for ALL sections. That's  very undesirable.

I believe that is possible by opening Style Creator and then selecting the Section or Part you wish to edit.  This will allow you to edit just that Section or Part without affecting the other Parts or Sections.

Joe H

[Enildo]

I believe that is possible by opening Style Creator and then selecting the Section or Part you wish to edit.  This will allow you to edit just that Section or Part without affecting the other Parts or Sections.

Joe H

You are very correct Joe!

[Joe H]

tyro2009,

Did you give it a try? It should work for you.



Joe H

[vitalog2010]

Dear friends,

I have write an article of my personal and biggest wishes list for new generation of the Genos. I hope my option will be useful for you.

Here my article about new Genos2: https://psrstyles.com/our-blog/yamaha-keyboard-news/43-yamaha-genos-2-coming.html

Thank you

[ton37]

Hi @Vitalog2010: my compliments for the extensive report and your substantiation on relevant points. It broadly covers, partly or not, the wish already expressed by many current Yamaha Genos owners. I may have overlooked it in the detailed description, but did you also send this to Yamaha Company and did you happen to get a response (I honestly don't expect them to give any response, at the most they got it? ).
If at moment X there is ever a new keyboard (eg. Genos 2/3) from Yamaha, we will be able to see, looking back on the wishes of their customers, whether Yamaha is:
A. a company that listens to its customers or ...
B. is a headstrong company that cares for itself what their customers have to like.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Ton :

I am convinced Yamaha are listening to their customers' needs
( why not ? ) and ... Yamaha will surprise the world with their Genos ' successor but ... they need more time ( 11/2023 ? ) than most people might expect, I guess.

IMHO their new arranger will beat the PA5X and Yamaha will maintain their #1 World Position.

I am hoping the new Yamaha arranger will be made in 2 versions :
61 and 76 keys - wishful thinking ?

Best Wishes, JH

[ton37]

@Jeff_H; I accidentally dropped my crystal ball, so it's no use to me now  . So I have to wait and see what the future will bring us.

[sunny]

The Genos keyboard is excellent but it lacks Indian content and other important features. These are the suggestions for the upcoming Genos 2 replacement keyboard.

   1) All these Indian voices which are available in Yamaha Montage & Modx keyboard are needed in Genos replacement keyboard.
     1) Bansuri 1
     2) Vib &Santoor
     3) Harnonium 2
     4) Tutti
     5) Banjo 1
     6) Voilin 1
     7)Bass &Mandolin
    Sweet Oboe
    9) Vibraphine
    10) Bass & Sitar
    12) Human Choir
    13) Nawa Sadaran
    14) Electric Voilin
    15) Old Flute
    16) Bansuri 2
    17) Sarangi
    18) Flute 2
    19) Shenhnai
    20) Strings2
    21) Surmandal
    22)Flute &String
   23)Santur Trill
    24) Rabab
   25) Oboe 1
   26) Dulcimer XP
   27) Mandolin Triller
   28) Bollywood Piano
   29) Indian Laed
   30)Electric Guitar
   31) Harmonium & Dargam
   32) Indian kit

  OTHER FEATURES REQUIRED :

 2) 61 Note keyboard with world wide selection of voices.

 3) Seamless Sound Switching (SSS) like Montage keyboard to avoid break up voices while changing registrations.

 4) New Trill effect button or Trill effect SA2 buttons needed for  for Santoor, Surmandal,Banjo, Mandolin &Dulcimer voices.

 5) Trill effect to be assigned to Joystick or SA2 buttons for Santoor,Surmandal,Banjo, Mandolin &Dulcimer.

6) Organ voices in Genos keyboard are poor, Organ Voices need to be improved. Hauptwerk Pipe Organ voices, Combo Organs and Wurlitzer Electrostatic Reed Organs are needed.

7) Individual buttons for R1,R2,R3 for upper octave.

After Modulation effect to be assigned to pedal.

9)  Crossfade Portamento with velocity and time related parameters feature like PSR A5000 keyboard.

10) Instant Registrations saving like PSR 740 keyboard without getting pop up message ( like save YES or No).

11) Registrations buttons to be increased to 10.

12) System Reverb effect to be applied for  SUB outputs when Microphone output is assigned to SUB OUTPUTS.

13) Fast forward and creating play list  for Audio Player.

14) Audio recorder Songs to be shared via Wi-Fi or bluetooth. to Mobile Phones.

15) Last played voices to be restored automatically when the keyboard switched on.

16) Note off Signature feature  like Motif keyboard for custom samples.

17) Motorized Display needed.

18) Space to accommodate  using external I-pad on the keyboard.

19) To accommodate using light weight Plastic Music Stand also.

20) Multipads to be off  if pressed the same button again.


Sunny

[Duffy]

Hey Ton :

I am convinced Yamaha are listening to their customers' needs
( why not ? ) and ... Yamaha will surprise the world with their Genos ' successor but ... they need more time ( 11/2023 ? ) than most people might expect, I guess.

IMHO their new arranger will beat the PA5X and Yamaha will maintain their #1 World Position.

I am hoping the new Yamaha arranger will be made in 2 versions :
61 and 76 keys - wishful thinking ?

Best Wishes, JH

I don't agree they are listening Jeff.
I have been complaining about lack of seamless sound switching since Tyros 4.
My Technics KN7000 could manage it ok 20 years ago.
That and a really good Hammond and Leslie sound would make it just about perfect for me.
All the best mate.

[Ronbo]

20) Multipads to be off  if pressed the same button again.


I definitely agree with this one

Regards

Ron

[Toril S]

So do I!

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Until the year 2002 Yamaha sold the best professional midi sequence programme ever made for Yamaha arrangers ( Tyros2 included ) : XGWORKS - XGW - .
That same year ( 2002 ) the German Steinberg company ( Cubase e.g. ) was acquired by Yamaha.
Yamaha ended the sales of XGW immediately. Updates were no longer available and XGW disappeared completely from Yamaha''s software range.  

When the new Genos' successor will be in the market, I hope and pray a similar commercial sequence programme ( made by Yamaha or Steinberg } will be available for the new successor.
Nowadays many other Yamaha arranger owners are still using the old XGW ( like me ) but it is no longer usable for modern styles ( SFF2 format ). 
Only SFF1.sty's are working in XGW.
We all know the problems if SFF2 styles are converted to SFF1 styles.

Wishful thinking ? I hope not and I am still hopeful ...
Best wishes, JH

[EileenL]

I have never used any additional programmes for any of my keyboards but have always been able to do what I wanted and been quite happy with it.

[Divemaster]

Well said Eileen!

I'm a member of several forums, and there always seem to be those who basically dismantle their cars/keyboards/boats/houses... etc etc.  instead of just enjoying them..  I never get it!

I saw that you have been unwell, and hope that you are feeling better.

Keith.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi :

IMHO sequence progs, called DAWs, are very useful tools.
I am respecting those who have a different opinion but the advantages are very interesting for my home recording activities.

Best regards, JH

[EileenL]

I just record my songs to Midi then adjust them and then record them into the Audio sequencer. Produces fine quality recordings and most enjoy them.

[pjd]

Until the year 2002 Yamaha sold the best professional midi sequence program ever made for Yamaha arrangers (Tyros2 included) : XGWORKS - XGW - .
That same year ( 2002 ) the German Steinberg company ( Cubase e.g. ) was acquired by Yamaha. Yamaha ended the sales of XGW immediately. Updates were no longer available and XGW disappeared completely from Yamaha's software range.  

Actually, Jeff does have a point. XGWorks was/is unique in that it directly supports XG features like voice editing, effects editing, and so forth. It also supports XF lyrics, if I recall correctly.

Cubase does none of that. Even though Cubase claims to support XF lyrics and chords, I have never been able to get it to do so correctly. You wind up micro-editing XF chords and lyrics at the most basic level (equivalent to manually editing System Exclusive messages). The only way to edit XG effects (AKA "DSP effects") is by hand-coding System Exclusive messages in hexadecimal.

Steinberg do not want to condescend to supporting things they did not invent -- XG and XF. Yeah, I think they are arrogant. 

Sorry to end up sounding so negative. Jeff's suggestion is a positive one although directly reviving XGWorks may not be the final answer.

-- pj

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I love Cubase and Wavelab