New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[mikf]

It's not all that uncommon for some of the worlds top musical instruments to be made by very small companies with very limited support and distribution. Eg ...Pianos - Fazioli (Italy), Stewart and sons (Australia) - guitars - Gearge Lowden (Ireland). These instruments are all rated among the best of the best by those in the know, yet most people will never have heard of them, far less been lucky enough to own or play one. All individually made hand built instruments, not household names and I'm sure there are many others.
Mike

[AndrewKeyz]

AJ at Ketron USA said Ketron Italy will NOT be shipping any more Events until sometime in March. Apparently Ketron is a much smaller company than I realized. There could be just a dozen or so people assembling the Events, and they probably want to have a couple of hundred or so on hand to ship out by March, which means they could be working around the clock to accomplish their goal. Now, as far as Yamaha goes, there's really no telling what's going on behind the scenes at Yamaha Japan unless, of course, someone at Yamaha USA/UK/etc., breaks the NDA or Yamaha personally starts leaking things to the media to give people a heads-up about a possible new high-end arranger coming down the pike. Remember, Yammie hasn't even hinted about a Montage replacement yet, and the Montage has been on the market a year longer than the Genos has. Now, if you've got deep pockets and don't gig and want a stellar high-end "digital piano" arranger keyboard, there's always the Yamaha CVP-805/809 to consider. It sounds better than the Genos, has new voices and about the same amount of voices as Genos, 675 Styles, has VRM (Virtual Resonance Modeling) technology used for the CFX Pianos also with Binaural Sampling (also included is the Bösendorfer Imperial Grand), 256 note polyphony with no mention of the polyphony being relegated to separate sections/areas e.g. Preset and Expansion sections on the Genos is divided i.e. 128 note (Preset) & 128 note (Expansion). So that's another huge plus regarding the CVP line, if true. 88-key Linear Graded Hammers, which is the bee's knee's if you're mainly a Pianist at heart. And the nice thing is, it doesn't seem to affect the users' ability to play other voices effortlessly.

Here's a recent video demonstrating the CVP-809 that makes that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQS5fdSy6U    The CVP-805/(809 is top-of-the-line) are rather expensive, but I'm talking to those with deep pockets who no longer gig. Set it and forget it since it weighs 185 lbs (Polished finish) 181 lbs, Matte Finish. So in conclusion, if Yammie has decided to exit the TOTL arranger market, then we would still have the very popular and fantastic sounding CVP line...for people with deep pockets.  Everyone else can either keep the Genos until the cows come home, or chuck the Genos and get a Pa5X or a Ketron Event that have newer technology and also sound great. Your choice. 

Btw, I mentioned a while back that Yamaha employees sometimes peruse the PSR Tutorial forums. When the Genos first came out, a Yamaha employee by the name of Heratch Touresian posted a few times on the forum. Previously, I had forgotten his name. He's an expert in the digital music industry (both hardware and software) who has been working for Yamaha as a technical sales specialist since 2002. I'm sure there are other Yammie employees who also check us out on occasion to see what we're up to and to get ideas of what Yamaha customers are looking for in future Yamaha keyboard products. Thought I'd throw that in. PS: If you want a fantastic deal on a Yamaha CVP-809, look no further than the Piano Guys Piano Store out of Gilbert, Arizona. They have a website: thepianoguyspianostore.com. They're currently having a sale on the CVP line. Furthermore, they beat Sweetwater.com price by a lot, FYI. I'm not sure if they ship internationally, though. Enjoy whatever you play! And let's all hope Yamaha hasn't given up on top-of-the-line arranger keyboards. September 2023 sounds okay with me, if true.  Remember the NAMM 2023 trade show runs April 13-15 so perhaps Yamaha will reveal a Genos successor there? 👍 

All the best, Mike

That CVP809 demo is pretty awesome! For me it actually doesn't seem THAT much to have dropped an additional 5K on top of the PA5X I bought and to then have a near perfect digital piano with speakers as well. I'm pretty dissatisfied with the Korg for the price I paid. I keep telling myself to give it a go again but I'm just too obsessed with the Genos. I see the CVP has reg buttons. It would have been a deal breaker if it didn't. The PA5x I just find almost unusable without it. I can't setup songs the way I want.

Bonners told me this week that there is around a 5 month wait on almost anything Yamaha or Kawai digital keyboard / piano related that isn't in stock, which I guess would include the CVPs. 

I will go see it in store anyway now that you tickled my interest with that demo. If they can give me a good deal on taking back the PA5X, who knows.... For me the keybed on the CVP809 would have to be perfect. No noise, pretty light and comfortable like my U1. If it has that it might just sell me over regardless of the stupid price.
Having said that if I don't hear much of a sound difference from the Genos and I can find a more or similar comfortable digital keybed in store (a cheaper digital piano that will outshine the awful Fatar keybed) I think combining that with the Genos possibly gets you 70-80% of the CVP 809 functionality (without the speakers of course). Hmmm... Will see.

Edit:
Hmmm this doesn't look good for me personally. Nothing seems to beat the digital Kawai actions... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEKFGkR6KAk&t=278s&ab_channel=BonnersPianos%26Keyboards

[Lee Batchelor]

Amazing demo of the CVP! I can't help thinking that some of those tunes were pre-scored with MIDI tracks and played along with. No matter - it still worked!

Wish he'd play a whole song and once again insist that the video camera be installed over the top of the CVP. Who are the people who shoot this stuff? Of course, our main focus is the sound but we also need to see what the CVP looks like!!!!!!!! Duh!!!!!!!!

[AndrewKeyz]

Amazing demo of the CVP! I can't help thinking that some of those tunes were pre-scored with MIDI tracks and played along with. No matter - it still worked!

Wish he'd play a whole song and once again insist that the video camera be installed over the top of the CVP. Who are the people who shoot this stuff? Of course, our main focus is the sound but we also need to see what the CVP looks like!!!!!!!! Duh!!!!!!!!

There are surprisingly very few close up photos I can find of the CVP. I guess with this type of instrument the whole package sells it. I'm more interested in the controls personally.

[mikf]

The demo shows the amazing quality and versatility of these arrangers, but the truth is that a player of this standard could have done the same demos on an SX900, or Genos and been just as impressive. And although we talk about the differences a lot, as if they are the be all and end all, the truth is that the differences are becoming almost imperceptibly small. Because they are all great sounding instruments  when they are played at this level.
Will Yamaha continue to make a TOTL arranger, that will depends on their view of future sales. But I know that if I were in a decision making position in Yamaha, I would be asking whether it might be better to make a slightly tarted up version of the SX900, perhaps with 61, 76 and 88 key alternatives, and sell it only a little more tha current SX pricing. It might be much more effective  than trying to squeeze more innovation into a Genos. Because it's now reached the development plateau with diminishing returns, and the market is probably quite price sensitive.
A slightly improved 76 key SX, leave out the speakers, selling under $3000 and just leave the CVP as a high priced TOTL ....maybe. See my other post on portability and price drivers.
Just a thought.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

Hey Mark :

Thank you so much for informing this forum about your pros and cons findings between the Yamaha Genos and the Korg PA5X/88.

BTW, is it your intention to add the Ketron/Event to your arrranger's product range in the near future ?
If that might be the case, an objective, detailed dealer's comparison between the Genos and the Event would always be very welcome ( to whom it may concern ), I guess.
There is no enduser's reaction of this new arranger available ( yet ).
I am still waiting for Ketron's English spoken pro video presentation. Wonder if it will ever come ?

For your information, I have no intention to buy a competitive arranger keyboard. I am a traditional Yamaha customer for more than 22 years.

As usual I am always reading your educational comments. 

Best regards, JH

Alas, we carried Ketron 20 years ago. Not enough interest. Our fellow Canadian competitor carried Ketron right up until 5 years ago, they dropped it for the same reason: not enough interest to warrant carrying them. I'm *very* curious to try the event: it's actually *less* expensive than their previous model, the SD60, which launched at an eye-watering $9500 (that was the product that made our competitor also pull out of the market) By comparison, the Genos launched at $6k, The PA5x launched at $6.3k for 76 keys,  Pa4x launched at $5.3k for 76 keys.

As much as I'd love to get my hands on a Ketron Event (looks like it will be approx $6k in Canada) the poor distribution, combined with the historically poor sales means I won't be able to convince our company to bring them in. I was hoping to try it at our competitor, but they've scrubbed the brand Ketron completely from their website as well now. Chances are slim to none

Mark

[Jeff Hollande]

Mark :

Thank you very much for your feedback.

It looks like only a few ( worldwide & European ) dealers
might have the intention to sell the Ketron/Event in the near future ?
🥺
Time will tell ...
JH

[kiplis]

Next week 


https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000

[Jeff Hollande]

Next week 


https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000

A lot of money though ... 

JH

[usaraiya]

Jeff,

The eventually (pardon the pun) upcoming new Genos will not likely be cheap, either!

Uday

[BogdanH]

A lot of money though ... 

-It sure is! But compared to Genos launch price, it's not that "bad" Ok, Korg Pa5X 76-key is 300€ cheaper and it also has 61-key option (additionally 300€ cheaper).

My impression so far... They're both very good keyboards, of course. But from what I've seen so far, I imagine that I could easier switch from Yamaha to Korg, that that's the case for Ketron. I mean, generally speaking, Yamaha and Korg have similar styles/voices approach and so I wouldn't expect much troubles to learn the differences. Ketron however, is still not really clear to me.. especially styles stuff. But on the other hand, voices on Event sound just stunning in my ears.

Bogdan

[terryB]

Note the price excludes VAT, thats +20% in the UK. What about import duty?
How much will a module version be ? I wonder, that could be of interest to some.
Cheers Terry

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Bogdan :

I agree the sound quality looks to be OK ( ... in the video's ) .
 
In most cases each individual experienced customer will not buy a high end arranger if he/she is not familiar with the instrument ( yet ), right ?
At least he/she wants to hear, play and test the instrument ( in the shop ) thoroughly before he/she will decide whether or not he/she will spend more than 5,000,-- Euro's.
An enduser wants also to know the warranty conditions, the situation of the service after sale, where in his/her region it can be bought etc., I guess.

Apparently, as we heard often in this thread, for the time being, there are only a few Ketron dealers in the world compared to Korg and Yamaha.
Yesterday we have found out ( see Mark's last report ) how Canadian ( ex ) Ketron dealers' impressions and experiences are described.
It looks like they are no longer interested in selling Ketron's arrangers. 

Why should a traditional Yamaha or a Korg customer buy an expensive Ketron/Event ?
I cannot answer that question now, sorry 

Best regards, JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Uday :

There is no reason why the new Yamaha high end arranger will be called "cheap ".

It might be possible the new one will be 10% higher ( or even higher, who knows ? ) in price than the present Genos' price.
As long as the new Yamaha keyboard's customer gets what he/she expected, IMHO.

BTW, we have to keep in mind the second hand price of a Yamaha arranger has never disappointed, right ?

Best wishes, JH

[Bill]

Ketron however, is still not really clear to me.. especially styles stuff. But on the other hand, voices on Event sound just stunning in my ears.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan
Latest video from AJ - Ketron America,  First and last parts are just playing. The middle section is a tutorial on STYLES.

https://youtu.be/HRTKta4MZ3Q

Another no talking styles demo.

https://youtu.be/hiWZF85LXAA


Bill

[BogdanH]

...
At least he/she wants to hear, play and test the instrument ( in the shop ) thoroughly before he/she will decide whether or not he/she will spend more than 5,000,-- Euro's.
...

-agree on that.
And that's my main concern (not that I'm into buying right now, though). It is a lot of money and there should be a chance to actually see and "touch it" (you know what I mean) before buying.
On the other hand, from what I can see in general on internet, I don't doubt Ketron quality. So I think, it also depends on feedback from actual owners (objective/honest reviews and tutorial examples).
Time will tell 

@Bill
Yes, I watched that AJ video yesterday and it is one of the best so far (I was quite impressed). Hopefully we get more of that soon. Darn.. what am I talking about... I don't have money for TOTL keyboard 

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

Do not worry. It is only a hobby !

You have a very nice, modern and professional arranger keyboard : a Yamaha SX700.
Enjoy it and have fun every day.

An expensive arranger NEVER made a person a better musician.

In my perception playing music is much more important.

I am still very happy with my Ty4 and my 3 guitars.
It would be very painful for me if I had to say goodbye to one of my instruments ... I simply love them.

Of course in my heart I want the latest technology and the best sound. I am a dreamer.
But I cannot have it all.

Like you I admire Alois Müller.
He is a very professional musician, a great player and looks to be a nice person.

Take care, my friend !
All the best, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

An expensive arranger NEVER made a person a better musician.

Actually it does, Jeff. Of course, I know that you meant - practicing is the true key to mastering the keyboard. You're 100% right. But having a TOTL keyboard makes it easier to explore music you never thought possible.

[BogdanH]

@Jeff
In general I am happy with my keyboard and I still think I made a good decision by buying it. But I'm a dreamer too.. and when I see new TOTL keyboard to come, I just hope that a piece of that technology will also land in future mid-range keyboards... which might be dangerous for my wallet 
Anyway, I try to be rational and if at all, then I will only buy new keyboard if there are substantial improvements that I find useful for me.

Best wishes,
Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Mark :

Thank you very much for your feedback.

It looks like only a few ( worldwide & European ) dealers
might have the intention to sell the Ketron/Event in the near future ?
🥺
Time will tell ...
JH

Well, I found this:

https://ketronamerica.com/dealers.html

But I don't know how out of date it is; if you click "contact us" it gives a 404 page not found, if you click products, no Event, newest is the SD60 (2018 ish) that I'd mentioned (you have to drop down from SD9 (2015-ish)for some reason). So kind of odd that Ketron American still has no mention of the Event? The website still lists the SD9 as new (which launched around 2015)

Mark

[Jeff Hollande]

Bogdan
Good to hear that ! Thank you.

Lee
You are absolutely right : a top instrument makes life for a good musician a lot easier and offers much more possibilities to make a good musician even better.
For professionals like you it is a must.

Best regards, Jeff

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Mark :

Apparently it looks like Ketron is capable to produce a good product but Ketron still is a small Italian local ( family ? ) company ( lack of a professional marketing - and distribution departement, etc. ? ).
International business might be a serious problem for Ketron, dealers and endusers. It cannot be solved due their present structure, IMHO.

JH

[keynote]

That CVP809 demo is pretty awesome! For me it actually doesn't seem THAT much to have dropped an additional 5K on top of the PA5X I bought and to then have a near perfect digital piano with speakers as well. I'm pretty dissatisfied with the Korg for the price I paid. I keep telling myself to give it a go again but I'm just too obsessed with the Genos. I see the CVP has reg buttons. It would have been a deal breaker if it didn't. The PA5x I just find almost unusable without it. I can't setup songs the way I want.

Edit:
Hmmm this doesn't look good for me personally. Nothing seems to beat the digital Kawai actions... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEKFGkR6KAk&t=278s&ab_channel=BonnersPianos%26Keyboards

Hi AndrewKeyz, the video link you posted is a comparison between the Yamaha CLP685 vs Kawai CS11, 5 years ago, which is before the CVP-809 was released to the public. I haven't played a CVP-809 myself, but looking at the YouTube video I posted previously seemed to suggest the key action was not overly heavy. If there is anyone on the forum who has played a CVP-809, maybe they could chime in and fill us in regarding the key action. 🎹

PS: Correction: price for the CVP-809 at the Piano Guys Piano Shop in Gilbert, AZ is actually the same price as on Sweetwater.com. Sweetwater does have the Polished Ebony Finish in Stock and they do ship internationally and they have free shipping on most items, but I'm not sure about the CVP-809 since bulkier items don't ship free but arguably @ 185 lbs the CVP-809 doesn't seem that heavy compared to, say, a Hammond B3 organ, etc. 

All the best, Mike 

[AndrewKeyz]

Hi AndrewKeyz, the video link you posted is a comparison between the Yamaha CLP685 vs Kawai CS11, 5 years ago, which is before the CVP-809 was released to the public. I haven't played a CVP-809 myself, but looking at the YouTube video I posted previously seemed to suggest the key action was not overly heavy. If there is anyone on the forum who has played a CVP-809, maybe they could chime in and fill us in regarding the key action. 🎹

PS: Correction: price for the CVP-809 at the Piano Guys Piano Shop in Gilbert, AZ is actually the same price as on Sweetwater.com. Sweetwater does have the Polished Ebony Finish in Stock and they do ship internationally and they have free shipping on most items, but I'm not sure about the CVP-809 since bulkier items don't ship free but arguably @ 185 lbs the CVP-809 doesn't seem that heavy compared to, say, a Hammond B3 organ, etc. 

All the best, Mike

Thanks Mike, ultimately the best thing for me to do will be to have a go at these keybeds myself. Hopefully I can manage to try out a number of keybeds this coming Saturday: CVP 809, MP11SE, ES920, Nord Grand etc. I was extremely disappointed with the RD2000 (too heavy action and the light setting didn't really improve things), that came highly recommended and I didn't like the usage at all, and now the PA5X88 which in my opinion has an awful keybed that is breaking after very light use. I feel a huge disconnect with playing on that and making music. It seems a struggle somehow, which I'm not sure is just the PA5X or the keybed ruining it. I've heard other complaints about Fatar in general, especially from pianists. I'm surprised it is so bad to be honest after all they are used in many controllers etc. I wish Korg would have gone with something that was universally more liked, like a Kawai ES920 keybed maybe? I've seen some mentions that Korg's own 88 weighted keybeds on some of their recent products are quite liked, so really don't understand the Fatar thing at all. Maybe a weight, cost or resources issue. Best one I've used in the past was a Kawai CA67, which I appreciate is a near real piano action and would never go into a portable arranger.

Will see if the Yamaha GrandTouch is any better than my RD2000 was and closer to that Kawai. It certainly won't be as bad as the PA5X I'm betting.

[Jeff Hollande]

I think Yamaha had gone as far as it wanted with expansion packs and there are so many third party packs around now to buy. They probably decided they could invest the money spent on this side into the development of future keyboards.

As we all know midi styles are easily to extract and edit.
Audio styles cannot even be extracted.

No longer expansion packs nor audio styles for me.
Back to Yamaha's roots.

Hopefully a new Yamaha high end arranger keyboard equipped with the technological knowledge and input of 2025. 
A brand new midi editing win/mac software programme would also be very welcome. A very good additional and useful tool, IMO.

Am I dreaming ?

Best wishes, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

You're not dreaming, Jeff.

I think the Genos needs some serious upgrades but I don't think these upgrades need to be classified as a "total redesign." For me, there are only a few key components that Yamaha must look at. With Korg and Ketron, it seems they almost re-invented the wheel because their prior models couldn't compare to the Genos. Time will tell.

[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you, Lee, for your comments.👍

Up to now we did not hear, except a few reactions as far as the PA5X is concerned, any reactions from endusers.
I understand Korg's PA5X updates are not finished yet and Ketron's
Event is not even in the hands of one customer.
We do not know ( yet ) when all competitors' new arrangers will finally be in the market.
Our first Event impressions are only based on video's presented on Youtube. Are these video's made by professionals ? I cannot answer that question, sorry.
The present PA5X reactions from traditional Korg customers are not so positive ( see Korg's Forums ) like most of us might think they are.
Now many people are all waiting for Yamaha's answer before most endusers will decide to place an order, I guess.
Let us cross our fingers Yamaha will be the best choice for all endusers.

Bye for now, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

All good points, Jeff. You wrote, "Our first Event impressions are only based on video's presented on YouTube. Are these video's made by professionals?"

I haven't seen one video that I would classify as made by a pro player. Regardless of their skill levels, all these players are just "tinkering" around. There's very little actual demonstrations of what this thing can do and how it's done. Perhaps it's eons ahead of every other arranger but how do we know? You can't sell expensive products through the use of teaser videos done by non-pro players. This is a stain on Ketron's marketing skills. They may have ruined their big release by not being first to the demo party the way Yamaha did with the Genos and all their earlier keyboards.

I also think that when Yamaha comes close to releasing their Genos 2, the should leak out some teaser videos...oh wait, I think they do that 😀!

[mikf]

if you look at the Ketron website, they state their mission is to design instruments for 'solo performers and amateurs'. Interesting that they put solo performers first.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

True, Mike. I wouldn't have used the word, "amateur."
Perhaps, "recreational players," "home players," "off stage players" or "for fun players."