New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[mikf]

It is obvious from the volume of forum posts on the subject that new TOTL products from Korg and Ketron and the technology they offer are of great interest to many forum members, including those who wonder and speculate how Yamaha will respond. As a moderator I currently see no downside in this as long as it remains informative, respectful, and provided no one is using this forum to actively promote these products.
It still represents a relatively modest proportion of overall forum posts, and we see no need to set up additional forum sections just to accommodate this.
Mike

[Duffy]

Is there such a thing as a Ketron forum where we could read about the attributes of their keyboards, rather than a Yamaha keyboard dedicated forum 

Cheers

There is, but it just says the same as it does on here and many members on here will be curious and will not have membership on a Ketron Forum to read it.
Presumably, you have chosen to read about a Ketron keyboard on this Yamaha keyboard Forum.
As we are on an arranger keyboard Forum, people find it interesting to see what is happening in the world of arranger keyboards.

[Henni]

If I'm following this properly, then what you are saying is that in effect each chord can have its own pattern within the part. So while on Yamaha you define one pattern per style part / variation, and it transposes according to the chord, the Ketron can use a selection of different patterns.

Could be interesting - but could also be overused if you're not careful

Hi DerekA,

From what I can make out from the videos you can have a completely different style pattern for every different chord and these presumably are also different for each variation as well. Sokratis demonstrates this nicely in his video. Really AMAZING stuff! Also it seems as if you can have different patterns for different chords also on the intros & endings.

Found yet another video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHmhKd1kBQw

Until there are more, I'll post the ones I do find for the moment. Boy, just imagine if Peter Baartmans could demonstrate all the available futures for us.

Henni

[Ronbo]

Hello all.

Please take note that this thread has been read by almost 29,000 guests and members.

To me, this topic is interesting and also relevant

Just sayin'

regards

Ron

[rphillipchuk]

Hello all.

Please take note that this thread has been read by almost 29,000 guests and members.

To me, this topic is interesting and also relevant

Just sayin'

regards

Ron

Well said

The Other Ron

[Lee Batchelor]

I'd wager there was the same amount of speculative talk about the Genos on other forums months before its release. Those folks likely engaged in ideas about what Yamaha had up their sleeve and whether Korg, Roland, and other companies would answer with something of value against the Genos. It works both ways 😉.

As I mentioned earlier, the amount of "new discussions" about the Genos is waning. Our new members are most welcome and they keep us all anchored in a "Genos" mindset. Filling the remaining gap with this current hot topic keeps our forum interesting and maintains friendship and communication among members.

What else do we have to discuss? Covid, respiratory illnesses, inflation, Putin? That stuff is just depressing. I'd rather talk Genos2 versus PA5X versus Event 😀.

[Henni]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrFp6M3ky5w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dg3CYtQ5jk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXFTeHXIAEo

[EileenL]

Told us nothing. Where are the speakers on this keyboard.

[Henni]

Where are the speakers on this keyboard.

Same place as on the Genos.

[mikf]

You can plug it into the Genos aux input just like you would a guitar, then it passes they to the external speakers.  Or use a mixer and connect it directly to the external sound system.
Mike

[keynote]

Here is a new YouTube Ketron Event video by Sokratis Kavlentakis.  This video deals with the Ketron Event User Modeling Import Chord Midi file feature. Seems pretty straightforward. A simple midi file can be imported and used in a style on the Event to create a user song with accompaniment backing. Nice. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AHVc-16ro

All the best,
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Mike :

Wonderful ! Thank you for sharing this video made by Sokratis. 

Thank you Sokratis for demonstrating this great Event's feature. 

Best regards, JH

[EileenL]

I would not be interested in anything that requires you to hook up a computer. If you can't do it on the keyboard then it is not for me.
As for taking parts of a style to make a new one this is very easily done on Yamaha Keyboards and on Genos has been make even easier.

[Sokratis1974]

I would not be interested in anything that requires you to hook up a computer. If you can't do it on the keyboard then it is not for me.
As for taking parts of a style to make a new one this is very easily done on Yamaha Keyboards and on Genos has been make even easier.

Dear Eileen
I totally respect your opinion.
However. You are probably wrong because everything can be done also here onboard.
Simply for those with programming knowledge many things are done easier on a computer.
As for the fact that some things are easier in Genos again allow me to disagree. And I'm talking to you from the professional's side as well developer and as you know I also have the Genos where so far I still work with it in my live performances.
I would not like to go into details, but more or less many of us know what is happening and how serious limitations for creative development (from the users) not only Genos has but also all Yamaha arrangers until now.

[mikf]

Sokratis
I agree with you that everything I have seen so far indicates that creative use of the keyboard functionality is much improved on the Ketron compared to a Yamaha.
But the bigger question is how important is that to the average arranger buyer. The vast majority of arrangers are currently bought by people who want the instrument to be easy to operate and play, and sounds good when they do play, even if they have limited skills. They often have little or no interest in spending time becoming creative via the keyboard operating system. They would rather this was all done for them so they can just press as few buttons as possible and put their effort into just playing. An good example of this is that there are many more posts asking for a suitable style for a song than posts asking how to make or change styles.
I don't dispute that there are also number of potential buyers who wish to be able to produce better styles, midis, voices etc etc. But they are a relatively small number. You can see it on this forum where deep discussion of keyboard functionality attracts a lot of posts - but from the same small number of members and not from the majority.  And the danger is that the technical people - advanced users like yourself - that are driving development may not think like the person that is and has been the main arranger market target. Truth is, Eileen may be much more representative of the main arranger market than they are.
It's a thought.
Mike

[BogdanH]

I quite agree on what Mike just said. But still I wonder... let me explain:
Many of us are curious when will Yamaha release next keyboard. And so we make guesses about date, pricing and improvements. But what kind of improvements are we hoping for? Sometimes I have a feeling, that (at least for majority here) there are actually no specific wishes -it looks like the only wish (or hope) there is, is that Yamaha would "surprise" us. From what I have read, Genos has very good voices, plenty of styles, keybed is good, connectivity is good... So, on what department do we hope for the surprise? Where can Genos (and it's cheaper cousins) be improved?

Speaking for me (PSR-SX that is!), besides better keybed, I would appreciate better voices. But what would really make a big change for me, is much easier style creation. And I don't mean creating drum or bass pattern. I wish for better (more authentic) styles than those on 450€ keyboards. For example, I wish my style would contain crescendo or glissando, but it's impossible to make that -at least not in a reasonable manner.

Some say "I don't care about creating styles.. there are plenty available" and I respect that. But my guess is, many didn't even try it (or they did and gave up), because it looks too complicated -which it is. What I'm saying is, if style creation (which is basic attribute of arranger keyboard) would be more intuitive, then maybe more owners would be encouraged to try it.
And that's the main reason why I'm interested on what competition does.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[Henni]

https://youtu.be/uQ_HMmO4ZlA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN7AJOy1Zoo

[Sokratis1974]

Sokratis
I agree with you that everything I have seen so far indicates that creative use of the keyboard functionality is much improved on the Ketron compared to a Yamaha.
But the bigger question is how important is that to the average arranger buyer. The vast majority of arrangers are currently bought by people who want the instrument to be easy to operate and play, and sounds good when they do play, even if they have limited skills. They often have little or no interest in spending time becoming creative via the keyboard operating system. They would rather this was all done for them so they can just press as few buttons as possible and put their effort into just playing. An good example of this is that there are many more posts asking for a suitable style for a song than posts asking how to make or change styles.
I don't dispute that there are also number of potential buyers who wish to be able to produce better styles, midis, voices etc etc. But they are a relatively small number. You can see it on this forum where deep discussion of keyboard functionality attracts a lot of posts - but from the same small number of members and not from the majority.  And the danger is that the technical people - advanced users like yourself - that are driving development may not think like the person that is and has been the main arranger market target. Truth is, Eileen may be much more representative of the main arranger market than they are.
It's a thought.
Mike

Dear Mike
I would totally agree with you.
And maybe the right thing would be to make a distinction between people who buy an arranger just to play and nothing more which is completely respectable and legitimate because what we care about is music, and people who want to create through this instrument. Probably, as you rightly said, the second portion of people are less, but due to the musical culture of my country (Greece) as well as all the Balkan countries, Turkey, and Arab countries, much more things are required (styles, sounds, etc.) to meet these needs and which of course, in no case can any company cover these needs. So, the solution in our case is two things: 1) Sampler which is necessary for creating new sounds that we need, 2) Many and specialized possibilities in style creation.
So, I come to the following conclusion: When we talk about a flagship arranger and especially when we talk about Arranger/Workstation then both portions of people should absolutely be covered. Because it is not possible for any company to talk about a professional flagship Arranger/Workstation and not provide you with all the tools one needs to create. Here I would also like to point out that I think the only company that provides you 100% all the tools (onboard) and the best OS environment to build (from scratch) is Korg. Regardless of the new data that Ketron brings with the Event (Real Audio Chord, Real Audio Bass, Multichord etc.) Korg is the only one that provides you 100% of what you need without the need for any third-party program, nor do you encounter any limitation in capabilities (midi programming) etc.
Of course, lately a lot of things have gone wrong with Pa5x, and it is certain that Korg was in a big hurry to release an instrument that has a 100% new operating system where many functions that Korg arranger users knew from old times are absent as well as there are still several stability problems operating system. I was lucky enough to have the Pa5x 61 in my house for a month and all this I found out as a very old Korg user. Korg has promised that everything will be solved through future updates, but the user who paid 4700€ for a Pa5x 76 is not satisfied with the company telling him that (they will) be fixed. But that is another discussion.
Finally, I would like to say that I realised that a completely civilized dialogue can take place here, and that makes me especially happy. Through our disagreements I found with pleasure that everyone when they express what they think always gets something, someone who reads it learns and personally I always revise opinions when there are civilized dialogue.
And as the ancient Greek philosopher, legislator and poet "Solon" very wisely said "Γηράσκω αεί διδασκόμενος" which means: "I'm getting old but learning all the time".
I personally learn from wherever there is something that will help me learn something that makes me revise what I currently know. So, in the essential dialogue there will always be something in which you will put we thoughts and opinion about something, in another dimension that we might not have realized on our own. And this is excellent!!
Thank you very much!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!

[Sokratis1974]

I quite agree on what Mike just said. But still I wonder... let me explain:
Many of us are curious when will Yamaha release next keyboard. And so we make guesses about date, pricing and improvements. But what kind of improvements are we hoping for? Sometimes I have a feeling, that (at least for majority here) there are actually no specific wishes -it looks like the only wish (or hope) there is, is that Yamaha would "surprise" us. From what I have read, Genos has very good voices, plenty of styles, keybed is good, connectivity is good... So, on what department do we hope for the surprise? Where can Genos (and it's cheaper cousins) be improved?

Speaking for me (PSR-SX that is!), besides better keybed, I would appreciate better voices. But what would really make a big change for me, is much easier style creation. And I don't mean creating drum or bass pattern. I wish for better (more authentic) styles than those on 450€ keyboards. For example, I wish my style would contain crescendo or glissando, but it's impossible to make that -at least not in a reasonable manner.

Some say "I don't care about creating styles.. there are plenty available" and I respect that. But my guess is, many didn't even try it (or they did and gave up), because it looks too complicated -which it is. What I'm saying is, if style creation (which is basic attribute of arranger keyboard) would be more intuitive, then maybe more owners would be encouraged to try it.
And that's the main reason why I'm interested on what competition does.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

Dear Bogdan, you expressed with this opinion exactly what I had in mind!!
Respect!!

[soundphase]

Agree with the fact a better style creator could bring new customers to arrangers.

I'm not someone who only wants to be surprised.
I want seamless sound switching, vst sound quality, and more « random » effects everywhere and not only for drums.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi :

IMHO it is an exciting and very interesting challenge for Yamaha and especially for all endusers 2 competitors are launching new and great high end arrangers in 2023.

I must admit I am very impressed by the results of both competitive companies. Congratulations !

Now it is up to Yamaha to steal the show and surprise the entire Arranger World.

Last but not least it is up to all customers to make their final choice : a Genos2, a PA5X or an Event ...


Best Wishes, JH

 

[Lee Batchelor]

Everyone has raised some interesting points in these last posts. Here are my thoughts. Companies must think of two basic things when creating any arranger.

1) Does it sound good?
2) Is it usable?

Yamaha has excelled in voice creation. Comparing them to VST voices is unfair. Although we'd like to have VST voices, it's not financially feasible for Yamaha to include them in a compact arranger. The pianos and organs are still way behind. The piano player I replaced in a band one year ago, used a Korg keyboard built in 2012. It's organs are so far superior to the Genos that it's embarrassing. The Genos pianos aren't too bad but there is room for improvement. Styles have improved a lot over the past 30 years but that is because the voices used to make them have improved. The overall structures are still 30 years old and boring, despite the addition of some new worldly styles. They still use short, repetitive phrasing. Listening to players like Peter Baartmans is a real treat but he is so far ahead of any of us (I assume) that it's nearly impossible for any of us to harness that level of potential out of the Genos. We need technological help to narrow that gap. This is achievable by understanding the second point, "Is it usable?"

For the most part, the Genos is easy to use right out of the box. After a bit of reading, one can dive into the effects and editing features. But as Sokratis mentioned, if Yamaha touts the Genos as a creative professional keyboard, then they need to provide tools that are easy to use and that mimic more conventional computer schemata. Some mention that creating or editing styles is easy. Perhaps for them. I have a learning disability (actually we all do in one form or another). A lot of members find the Style Creator to be very confusing and just not worth the effort. Many of these players are musically capable of creating excellent styles but they lack the Yamaha logic to do it. If otherwise good players, can't expand their horizons through style creation, any keyboard will become old very fast.

There is the argument that the Genos has enough tools to keep anyone busy for a lifetime. To an extent, that's true. There is a catch though. A few years before Covid, I was playing in a blues band. Our drummer and bass player were excellent. They had good meter and were a pleasure to play with. Problem: They were boring to listen to. There was no incentive to expand my own musical horizon. That's not an excuse but it's hard to be the only one in a band who likes to color outside the lines once in a while. During that time, I had the pleasure of sitting in with a professional and very successful band. The bass player was a seasoned professional who had started the band in the late 60s. The drummer was a young kid from Toronto who at the time, was one of the most in demand studio session players. The point is, we played many of the same songs my current band was playing but this time the rhythm section was so slick, it helped me expand my own horizons.

This post is a bit long but I'm sure you get the idea. The Genos sounds great for the most part but it is mired in old technology. Korg and Ketron seem to have moved to the "next phase," leaving the Genos in their dust. Yamaha already has great sounds in the Genos, save for the pianos and organs – an easy fix for them. They need to revisit the overall sound, not just the solo voices. To do this, creativity must not be stifled by a substandard operating system.

[keynote]

I see Henni already posted a link to this new Ketron Event YouTube video. I would like to post the link again here because this video really exemplifies the great sounds and features on the Ketron Event, including the Real Chord/Real Bass additions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ_HMmO4ZlA&t=54s

PS: There are English subtitles for this video. Enable the Closed Captioning (CC), Voilà!

All the best,
Mike

[Henni]

Thank you Mike!

Here's another tad of info:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4aOrMo9Yyc

[Henni]

https://youtu.be/ngaH8iW7WXU

[BogdanH]

Delivery status of Event has changed at Thomann from "2-3 weeks" to "Available in several months" (same as for Korg Pa5X now).

[EileenL]

Perhaps they are waiting to hear news from Yamaha.

[Jeff Hollande]

Will there be some good news from Yamaha in 2023 ?
That would be great.

JH

[EileenL]

Its anyone's Guess.

[ton37]

Mmm.. I strongly suspect that a tactical or strategic game is currently being played between the players: Ketron, Korg and Yamaha. It seems that Yamaha is keeping a close eye on the Korg and Ketron and scrutinizing their products on the dissecting table. They probably have to/want to make new adjustments, based on the presentations of Korg and Ketron, to distinguish themselves at least from Korg (and to a lesser extent from Ketron) Looks like: two fighting over a bone and the third go with it (mm.. if you know what i mean)