New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[EileenL]

Looks to me like the sax part has been pre recorded so that you can play along with it. You can do this on most keyboards. Also the saxes on Genos are every bit as good if not better.

[genosmusic]

Looks to me like the sax part has been pre recorded so that you can play along with it. You can do this on most keyboards. Also the saxes on Genos are every bit as good if not better.

well they cant be better, because genos does not have
LIVE-SAX-recordings.

[EileenL]

Of course they do. Most samples used in keyboards are sampled live from the actual instruments to give them their authenticity.

[genosmusic]

Of course they do. Most samples used in keyboards are sampled live from the actual instruments to give them their authenticity.

Nah... A machine could never compete with a Real-Live Saxaphone player
perhaps you havn't heard any live ?

[Duffy]

Nah... A machine could never compete with a Real-Live Saxaphone player
perhaps you havn't heard any live ?

Very true. You can praise any keyboard as much as you like but, it's fantasy to think a keyboard can match a real sax player.
You can go on YouTube and listen to sax players and think, "whatever possessed Yamaha to sample that one"
I had a good friend who played Sax & Clarinet. He wouldn't claim to be the best in the world BUT, no keyboard could match his sound.

[usaraiya]

So, do you know whether the SAX part is recorded or is it jamming live following the chords?
If it is live, that is an incredible feature!


Uday

[genosmusic]

Very true. You can praise any keyboard as much as you like but, it's fantasy to think a keyboard can match a real sax player.
You can go on YouTube and listen to sax players and think, "whatever possessed Yamaha to sample that one"
I had a good friend who played Sax & Clarinet. He wouldn't claim to be the best in the world BUT, no keyboard could match his sound.

midi-SAMPLES are not the same as live-recordings from Players,
tyros5 had live audio recorded styles,
but they never thought to include Live-Sax-Recordings
this makes ketrons Feature totally unique

i wish i could demo one but its not possible at present.

[pjd]

So, do you know whether the SAX part is recorded or is it jamming live following the chords?
If it is live, that is an incredible feature!


Uday

Hello Uday --

I suspect that the saxophone licks are pre-recorded, i.e., not jamming. One could create a similar effect on Genos (or SX) using audio multi-pads. Each audio file would be a sax lick from whatever source: the recording of a friend playing sax, a lick from a sample library, etc.

The difference -- Ketron has incorporated such pre-recorded licks into their styles. The current chord guides selection of the audio file to be played and real-time transposition (if necessary). Yamaha multi-pads do not follow chord changes.

I noticed that the Ketron Event front panel mixer has Drum, Bass, Chord and Real Channel sliders to mix audio style elements. The Real Channel most likely controls the licks. There appears to be a trademarked feature, "Real Solos," which may be related.

Yamaha actually has a pile of patents on audio style generation:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-patents-summary-2017/

I wonder if they got shy about rolling out this technology in a product after hearing such shrieks and howls about their original (and current) implementation of audio styles.

Hope this helps -- pj

[genosmusic]

Luv the audio-styles from the tyros5, soooooooooo real, cause they Are.

you can also record both the styles, and the audio-drums together
using the audio-recorder, armed to Record-play/pause,then,
Hit Start-Stop, next to Sync-start

[usaraiya]

Hi PJ,

Thanks for the explanation! The Ketron playing audio files according to the chords, with tranpositions if needed, "real solos" sounds good and the "AI" technology perfected by Ketron is impressive.
Waiting for the final release of all the specs to determine what other goodies are there in the Pandora's Box!


Uday

[Lee Batchelor]

The more I listen to the Ketron Event the more I like it. Here is a new live demonstration of the KETRON EVENT - ***y Ambient Sax played live. Short, but sweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5pD_dmm1t0
Best,
Mike

Impressive! Like I said earlier, Yamaha has lots of work to do, unless they already have something in the wings that will blow the Event out of the water. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[genosmusic]

Impressive! Like I said earlier, Yamaha has lots of work to do, unless
they already have something in the wings that will blow the Event out of the water.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

It would surprise me
What more can be done that hasnt been done already.
In a way , Arrangers have reached the end of the road.

[mikf]

I agree that the technology is on the plateau phase but what Ketron has done with those live riffs embedded in the style sand triggered by the chords is definitely new, so there is always something more. And there are things implemented on some models but not on others , like the visual piano room on the CVPs/. And then there are some things that are just not yet right on the current models - like smooth voice transitioning, final mixing on recording, that should be addressed.
Mike

[genosmusic]

I agree that the technology is on the plateau phase but
what Ketron has done with those live riffs
embedded in the style sand triggered by the chords is definitely new, so there is always something more. And there are things implemented on some models but not on others , like the visual piano room on the CVPs/. And then there are some things that are just not yet right on the current models - like smooth voice transitioning, final mixing on recording, that should be addressed.
Mike

Im only guessing here, but i would presume,
that if ketron can Auto, live-sax-audio-licks, to styles, then
they can obviously do it for Other voices too like,
Flugelhorn, Country Guitars, Pianos, Jazz Flutes ?

But is it the concept thats definitely new , or is it the Technique thats New ?
Audio styles are not something new

Regarding the pa5X, there is zero cutoff
you can play the piano and transiton into orchestral strings, in a very smooth natural way,
same goes  for styles, god knows how they do this.
and any other brand that would bring this out later on , would have left it a bit late.
--------------------------

Reasons for my pre ordering the 5x, are primarily because its offers 2 features
that no other arranger in the world has

1: sampling
2: sidechaining

those 2 features alone will transform any production recording into a pro sounding track.
example :

"id love to have that rhodes electric keyboard sound that my friend has,
and his new grand piano sound too, and his sax that he plays live"

you can with a sampler, so skys the limit.

the sidechaining brings a modern pumping sound to r&b music
that cant be replicated in any other way, and was only available on high end
synths like the Yamaha Motif.

so yes , technology is on the plateau phase.

[Lee Batchelor]

I agree that the technology is on the plateau phase but what Ketron has done with those live riffs embedded in the style sand triggered by the chords is definitely new...

Incorrect. Band In a Box has been doing this with their MIDI and now Audio styles for almost 30 years. Ketron has simply integrated that idea into their latest arrangers.

What more can be done that hasnt been done already.
In a way , Arrangers have reached the end of the road.

Again, untrue. There is still a ton of room to improve voices and styles. The next big addition (hopefully) will be FAR better editing capabilities for styles, rather than, the primitive "teaser" editor that the Genos uses now. In a perfect world, they'd have it so we could edit on our computers, audition the newly edited style, and then save it to the Genos User drive. There are a boatload of people here who are equally qualified to create their own custom styles. All they need is a less clunky way to do it.

[mikf]

Lee - I don't hear this feature like as a customized style with nice audio loops. On a style the riffs repeat at the programmed intervals.  It appears to me that what is happening here is different because the sax riffs on the Ketron are much more random than that. Seems like some sort sort of smart algorithm that calls up very different phrases like a real sax player would as the chord sequence is played.  It almost seemed like there were no repeats. Not something I have heard from an arranger before.
I am not familiar with Band in a Box.
Mike

[pjd]

Until someone can play the actual instrument and report back to us, it's difficult to say what Ketron is actually doing with those sax riffs, i.e., selecting it, transposing/modifying it if necessary and so forth. And maybe figuring out how they do it.

In the meantime, I just assume, like all demos, that the example is cherry picked. Hip-hop artists bash jazzy riffs onto progressions all the time, albeit using musical ears to guide them. It would be interesting to know how many phrases one can cycle through before a repeat. The EVENT has a rather large storage drive, so it should be possible to store a big phrase library.

I will say that the end result sounds very nice.

Best to all -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Mike,

Band in a Box is a standalone software package that runs on a PC or Mac. It triggers a MIDI keyboard or uses its own internal audio sounds. Users enter the chords into the program in a standard chart form, and then press the Start button. A full background track is generated. The backgrounds were simple in the earlier days but have become very sophisticated over the years, much like what the Event does now. It has a "round robin feature," which means it varies the generated background tracks at random like the sax voice you heard on the Event demo. I used it on my first Christmas album in 1996. It was stellar back then and is even more evolved today.

The Genos is similar but far less sophisticated (boring actually, in comparison). Genos 2 will likely take this concept to a whole new level. After hearing the Event, I'm counting on it.

[genosmusic]

Lee - I don't hear this feature like as a customized style with nice audio loops. On a style the riffs repeat at the programmed intervals.  It appears to me that what is happening here is different because the sax riffs on the Ketron are much more random than that.

Seems like some sort sort of smart algorithm that calls up very different phrases like a real sax player would as the chord sequence is played.  It almost seemed like there were no repeats. Not something I have heard from an arranger before.
I am not familiar with Band in a Box.
Mike

Yes i think your right.

[Jeff Hollande]

The Ketron Event's manual is not available yet.  Early 2023 and delivery in June 2023 ?

Very recently Yamaha launched a VH Genos' update ( V 2.13  ).
Perhaps no Genos2 upgrade soon ?

Best regards, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Jeff, it looks like some small bug fixes. I think Genos 2 is still on the way. If they added a bunch of new features, I'd be concerned.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Lee :

Do you think we might expect a small upgrade like a Genos+ instead of a "real " upgrade ?

Would that be the right decision now competition is offering attractive arranger keyboards for 2023 ?

I hope Yamaha will launch a Genos2 that will beat all competitors. 

Best wishes, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Not sure Jeff. I would think a "midline refresh" would still require a boatload of financial resources from Yamaha and not generate a whole lot of revenue. On the other hand, it can be argued that many of the Tyros successors were mere improvements of the original jump from the PSR design to Tyros itself. Perhaps Yamaha will do the same with Genos?

Trying to figure out what Yamaha will do next is like trying to figure out what that lunatic in Russia is up to. My gut tells me Yamaha will release a major upgrade to the Genos because of the two new players on the block.

[Jeff Hollande]

When that should happen, Lee ... maybe Yamaha will give it also a new brand name, who knows ?

JH

[EileenL]

Well I am sure all this talking about what may or may not happen because of two competitors is utterly useless. What will be will be. We will buy or we won't bye.
  Much sooner read about what people are doing now with their currant keyboards.
Much more interesting.

[Jeff Hollande]

Speculation has always been funny. 
Best regards, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

You're spot on, Eileen. The main purpose of this forum and the reason for buying a Genos is to "make music." On the other hand, engaging in wide speculation as to what Yamaha has up its sleeve is further testament to Yamaha's ability to get people to ditch all the endless texting and back to playing music.

As each new Yamaha keyboard has emerged, I have become a better player. It's only in part because I practiced and acquired new skills. A lot of it was due to the improvements to the sounds and functions added by Yamaha over the years. It's like a cabinet maker who produces some pretty nice furniture by using simple hand tools. As time passes, give that same person a bunch of power planers, saws, sanders, shapers, routers, and other tools, and watch what he or she can build.

Advanced musical skills and superior music tools are not mutually exclusive. When you have great tools, you can become greater than you ever thought possible. I'm playing a lot of neat brass and organ parts now for my new band that I'm not really good enough to otherwise do. Between the Genos' great sounds and a lot of free YouTube help, I'm adding a dynamic to my current band they never thought possible. Wait until they hear Genos 2 😬!

[Jeff Hollande]

KETRON'S DEALERSHIP AND SERVICE AFTER SALES ?

I spoke to a few ( previous ) Audya5 owners and most of them confirmed as follows :
" Ketron dealers and service centres are not easy to find ".
 
I wonder what customers may expect when their Event will be on the market ?

JH

[genosmusic]

Well I am sure all this talking about what may or may not happen is utterly useless. What will be will be. We will buy or we won't bye.
  Much sooner read about what people are doing now with their currant keyboards.
Much more interesting.

very insulting to negate someones view,
just because it doesnt match your way of thinking ?

People have VALID points they want to make, and trying to Shut them up
is quite disrespectfull.

im a member of several other forums including, rowland,korg,casio
they do not Disrespect others by telling them their comments are
utterly useless?

you have your own forum, ?  why not do it there ?

[EileenL]

Sorry you feel this way Genos music,
  I come on this and any other forum to read about what people are achieving with their currant keyboards and what little gems they may have found. Things that I can try or pass on any tips for. This is what the PSR forum was all about.
  Now all people seem to do is knock the Yamaha keyboards they have and wonder what Korg and Ketron will have that is better. Whilst it is good to hear about what is out there in the way of new boards who wants to keep reading about What if's and May Be's and when. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this.
  As to my forum it is true to Yamaha and I do not get these sorts of posts. We all are there to help one another with these great keyboards and to share the music we play.