New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Lee Batchelor]

Very interesting, though pretty moot point for us "USA" players since ketron has no market presence over this side of the pond.

Heck, I never thought of that. I assume it's the same in Canada? No dealers? They could ship us one but the cost of shipping would double the price of the keyboard, nor would we able to demo it.

[Gunnar Jonny]

Very interesting, though pretty moot point for us "USA" players since ketron has no market presence over this side of the pond.

It's not totally empty 'over there' 
https://www.ketronamerica.com/

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

The new Event ( Ketron ) might not be interesting for most of us, IMHO.

No MIDI - No FUN : see very smart comments given by Maartenb.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I must admit a fantastic guitar sound on demo
I think that a new Genos will be out shortly

[Jeff Hollande]

It looks to be true, John.   

Hope the new Yamaha high end arranger will be #1, as usual.
And ... for me 61k are a must. No 76k ! Lack of space.

JH

[mikf]

Ketron has always made interesting products, and quite innovative, but the company was just too small to build large distribution/support networks. The presence in the USA was quite limited so only got traction on word of mouth mainly between pro players. I did hear a demo and play one briefly at the arranger get together Don Mason organized, and was particularly impressed by the piano voices, and the whole thing was pretty good. On the negative side there were comments I heard about bugs in the OS and lack of resources to get them resolved.
The Ketron and the the PA5X are the main competitors for the Genos, although Genos is the clear market leader. But at the moment they have both made what seems like a significant step ahead of Yamaha. And so far the silence from Yamaha on the next TOTL arranger has been deafening.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Apparently it looks like Yamaha will announce a new high end arranger soon, Mike. Not confirmed by Yamaha yet.
Let us cross our fingers.

Kind regards. JH

[EileenL]

And will you be the first to buy one Jeff as you have written so many hopes that it comes out soon.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Eileen :

A good question.
I cannot answer that question right now due to recent health problems in my family.

If e.g.the new one will available in 61 keys ( lack of space in our apartment for 76 k ), I might be interested in buying that new arranger at the end of 2023.

Time will tell.
Best regards, JH

[mikf]

Apparently it looks like Yamaha will announce a new high end arranger soon,
Kind regards. JH

Don't know how you deduce that, it might or might not turn out to be the case, but there is currently zero evidence to support such a statement.
It might be interesting to know if there is to be a new Genos, but I really don't think its a big concern for most forum members. If they like their Genos, which most do, then they are not desperately waiting with fingers crossed for a new model, and if they are disappointed with their Genos they have a couple of new choices to look at - Korg and Ketron. Its all good. 
Mike

[Del]

And will you be the first to buy one Jeff as you have written so many hopes that it comes out soon.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Ouch!!

[Lee Batchelor]

Let's not kid ourselves. When Yamaha posts the first 45 second teaser video for Genos 2, everyone on this forum will suddenly have overactive salivary glands. Even those with no intention of upgrading will comb over the video in awe of this new creation from Yamaha 😁. And those who will be upgrading will simply not sleep at night 🤣.

[keynote]

Here's the newest video sound demonstration from the Ketron Event arranger keyboard that I found on YouTube. I didn't notice any other posting of the same link in this thread but I just skimmed through them since a lot of people posted a comment. Anyway, here ya go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ6sLw95mXs

[keynote]

As a follow-up, this raises the bar for sound quality in the style category. All the styles on the Event are fully audio and have good sound quality and presence. The drums sound very natural as do the guitars. But I'm somewhat concerned that what we're hearing may be .mp3 (compressed) audio not .wav (uncompressed) audio. You can make .mp3 sound pretty good but .wav (uncompressed) audio is a whole lot better because compressed audio loses both high-end and bass response. Uncompressed audio reveals more of how a recording and playback should actually sound since it retains more of the audio data and therefore resulting in better sound quality. If the Event styles are .mp3 I would expect Yamaha to give the Genos 2 .wav audio styles to one-up the competition. 

Best,

Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

But I'm somewhat concerned that what we're hearing may be .mp3 (compressed) audio not .wav (uncompressed) audio.

...not to mention that YouTube applies its own compression. They need to get into the modern world of sound and make sure every video's audio track plays back at about the same level. One minute, you're hearing a low signal, the next minute, you're killed with high dB!!

[Sokratis1974]

Hello. Here is the Original playlist demos of EVENT in 16 bit/44khz (uncompressed) wav file.
It's an official list and I have company approval for these demos since I'm working for Event for a year as a developer.
This guy on YouTube took them from here and and after downloading them made the video.
Thanks
https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/sets/ketron-event

[Gunnar Jonny]

Thank you Socratis.
It sounds damn good, if I may say so. Actually sounds like a real band. 
I think Audiostyles is the future. Just look at BiaB, it's amazing how much it has evolved.
Looking forward to see more of the features and specs....

[BogdanH]

I think I'm quite sensitive to audio quality... But I challenge everyone above the age of 30, to recognize the difference between wav and hi quality mp3 just by listening. Saying that, the problem is not mp3 format itself. It's more about the quality of audio source before converting to mp3 and what compression settings are used.
Youtube is recommending to use high audio quality for uploading, but not every Youtube uploader knows how to do it properly.

Just my 2 cents,
Bogdan

[Sokratis1974]

NEW VIDEO https://youtu.be/u3Ab71Rf77U

[maartenb]

I challenge everyone above the age of 30, to recognize the difference between wav and hi quality mp3 just by listening.

This.

A 128 kilobit per second constant bit rate MP3 may be discernible from a wav audio file if you do a direct A/B comparison. But 192 and 256 kbps MP3s are almost impossible to distinguish from the original wav. And 320 kbps sounds exactly as the wav, even if you have golden ears.


Maarten

[mikf]

Given the average age of arranger users, for most even the 128 will not be discernible from wav!
One of the disadvantages of forums is that there will always be a few purists and 'experts' that make a big deal of things that don't matter to most of us.
Mike

[keynote]

NEW VIDEO https://youtu.be/u3Ab71Rf77U

This is the first instance of someone actually playing the Event arranger. The quality of the sounds the person played were excellent in my opinion. More playing, please! I know Ketron is teasing us by building up a crescendo of hype so I guess we'll have to be patient. Two things I really question. The Pitch and Modulation are wheels like the Tyros series but a Joystick actually can give you more control and nuance to the sounds you play. Also, it only has 128-note polyphony. The original Audya which came out years ago actually had 192-note polyphony. Why the regression? The Genos has 256 polyphony although divided between the Preset sounds and the Expansion sounds. The new Korg Pa5X has 160-note polyphony so Korg is making progress. Both the Event and the Pa5X are produced in Italy. I realize Ketron is a relatively small company compared to the Big Three but boosting the polyphony of the Event, in my opinion, would be more of an incentive to plunk down your hard-earned cash for the Event because it would be considered more of a future-proof keyboard. 💡 I really like the Event from what I've heard and seen so far but I'll wait and see what Yamaha has to offer on the Genos successor. I'm hoping the Genos 2 will have 256-note polyphony across the entire range of the keyboard no matter what section you play from i.e. Preset/Legacy or Expansion.

All the best,

Mike 

[keynote]

This.

A 128 kilobit per second constant bit rate MP3 may be discernible from a wav audio file if you do a direct A/B comparison. But 192 and 256 kbps MP3s are almost impossible to distinguish from the original wav. And 320 kbps sounds exactly as the wav, even if you have golden ears.


Maarten

There is about four times the amount of information (data) per audio second in the uncompressed format as there is in the highest-quality MP3 file. Sony and Philips set the bitrate for compact discs in 1980 at 1,411 kbps at 16-bit as we all know. But, of course, you can record/listen at a higher bit rate i.e. 24-bit @192kHz, etc. With a 16-bit audio file, there are over 65,000 possible levels available for capture. If you step up to 24-bit audio, the capacity reaches over 16.7 million levels. More data captured reveals better sound quality in music. A violin for example or any other instrument for that matter. You are able to hear more 'detail' in the instruments/music/song which equates to better overall sound quality. An MP3 file at 256/320 kbps is ideal for general listening. But if you've got good ears with no noticeable hearing loss do yourself a favor and record/listen to music in uncompressed (.wav) audio format if possible. It takes up more space on your computer/phone of course so depending on how much free space is available is worth noting. Another thing. Buy some really nice full-range speakers (goes for everybody if your budget allows) that are made specifically for professional audio reproduction. Speakers are every bit as important as the songs/music you listen to, whether in .mp3 or .wav audio. Cheers. PS: I see Maarten has the Yamaha HS-7 speakers which is a great choice. 👍

[Gunnar Jonny]

I noticed this from the video:
"The new State of the Art    Audio Arranger"

Another video at Ketron USA's site: https://youtu.be/cEbipISmhG0

[Lee Batchelor]

Isn't polyphony a moot point when you're dealing with audio styles? A minimal amount of polyphony would be adequate for the right hand playing function?

[usaraiya]

💡 I really like the Event from what I've heard and seen so far but I'll wait and see what Yamaha has to offer on the Genos successor. I'm hoping the Genos 2 will have 256-note polyphony across the entire range of the keyboard no matter what section you play from i.e. Preset/Legacy or Expansion.

All the best,

Mike

Mike,

Do you have definite release information for Genos 2 soon, or like all of us, hoping/guessing?


Uday

[keynote]

Isn't polyphony a moot point when you're dealing with audio styles? A minimal amount of polyphony would be adequate for the right hand playing function?

Hi Lee. Yeah, you don't need to worry about polyphony when dealing with audio files. So that is a great point since supposedly all the styles on the Event are audio styles. So yes, you will use less polyphony when playing the keys along with styles, and multi-pads, which are all triggered by MIDI, since the styles are audio. But in this day and age when everything on arrangers today have become more sophisticated and complex more polyphony is always better. For example, playing the keys along with a midi file, using the sustain pedal when playing, voice layering i.e. (R1, R2, R3, Left) at the same time, you start to run out of polyphony quite rapidly. Plus single instrument sounds themselves are oftentimes already layered thus consuming more polyphony. Today's top-of-the-line Arrangers should have at LEAST 256-note polyphony but that's just me. Note drop out during a live performance can be quite frustrating as many professional keyboardists can attest to. And you don't want your audience to start throwing tomatoes, right? 

We still have many questions regarding the new Event arranger. How much will it cost? It doesn't show any information at all on the Event on the Ketron USA website that I could tell. How much does it weigh? How fast are the "Dual Processors"? Does it have Seamless Sound Switching like the Korg Pa5X? After hearing AJ play the Event it most likely doesn't. SSS is a game changer IMO and so that gives the Korg Pa5X a huge leg up on the competition. I guess in the weeks and months ahead will finally get to the bottom of what the Event can do including all the features and functions, etc. Although, if it's anything like the roll-out of the Pa5X perhaps will see the Event in stores in the USA by mid-April 2023? 

All the best,

Mike

 

[ton37]

Yes, for those who consider a new keybaord, 2023 will be an exiting year. There are 3 leading branches; Ketron, Korg and Yamaha.That is good news for us as consumers.
This Ketron Event (half 2023?), Korg PA5X (fully updated with new releases  begin 2023), and the new Yamaha Genos with 61, 76 and 88 keys (half 2023)...happy new year 

[BogdanH]

I'm aware that this topic doesn't belong into this forum section, but as it was already mentioned, it needs to be clarified so someone wouldn't make wrong conclusions.
CD audio quality is defined by:
*sample rate of 44.100kHz -that's the lowest sample rate at which flat frequency response of 20Hz-20kHz is possible (in stereo).
*bit depth of 16bit -defines sampling precision of dynamic range (over-simplified: precision of loudness).
*wav format -is recorded data stream (means, series of 16bit numbers sampled at given sample rate) saved on media.
-that's the shortest simplified definition.

If we look at keyboard specifications, we can see, that the sound from our keyboard has exactly the same specifications. And it doesn't matter if we record digitally on keyboard, or if we use the audio output on back panel -because the source is the same.

..But, of course, you can record/listen at a higher bit rate i.e. 24-bit @192kHz, etc...

-yes, one can do that, but the quality will still be the same (as coming from keyboard). In short: quality of the sound depends on source. We can't change that afterwards by increasing recording parameters.
Higher bit- and sample rates are (only) used for master recordings in studios. Reason being, to make final product to sound as intended, a lot of sound post-processing is needed. And by doing this, audio quality might degrade. Means, master track of higher quality is used, so final sound still can have CD quality.

Now, depending on compression settings, mp3 still has sample rate of 44.100kHz and bit depth of 16bit. So where's the catch? It's called bit rate, which can be 8kbps all the way up to 320kbps. Chosen bit rate defines amount of compression, which directly influences the size of the file.. and the quality of sound.
So what is actually sacrificed in mp3? The shortest answer would be: frequency response. But in reality, it's not that simple. Depending on compression settings, only some (not all) of high frequencies are removed. This can easily be seen (on spectrogram) if we choose bit rate of 192kbps. In this case, we can see, that sound between 16kHz and 18kHz is still present. However not all frequencies in this range are covered. Which frequencies will remain depends on source (music complexity). Anyway, mp3 doesn't cut at low frequency range. The thing is, while we can hear (and "feel") low frequencies regardless of our age, high frequency perception degrades all the time as we age -without exception. And so, majority of people above the age of 30 can't hear sounds much above 16kHz. Yeah, guys at Fraunhofer Institute were quite smart when they invented mp3.

But one thing needs to be mentioned. With wav file, audio quality doesn't degrade if we re-save it again and again. That's not necessary the case for mp3 files -at the end, it's called "lossy" format. And finally, not all mp3 codec behave exactly the same. And so, for archiving purpose (of music we make on keyboard), I recommend using wav file, which we can use as master file in case of later post-processing. Or even better, we convert wav to flac format -that way we reduce file sizes substantially and still keep the original quality.

Bogdan