New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[EileenL]

I am still waiting to see a good demonstration of what all the sliders and buttons do on the Ketron and what advantage it has over other keyboards.

[Gunnar Jonny]

I am still waiting to see a good demonstration of what all the sliders and buttons do on the Ketron and what advantage it has over other keyboards.

This introduction video by AJ give a lot of info about the buttons functions.
What advantage it has over other keyboards or not will most probably depend of the users personal taste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGG2g7d-xlk

This video is about voices:
https://youtu.be/J0y5m4dsx40

[Lee Batchelor]

Jeff, there's no question that arrangers are meant for live playing, and synths are designed for live playing and studio work. However, Yamaha puts it right in their manual that you can record the Genos to a DAW. During down times from the stage, recording the Genos to a DAW is a great idea. It keeps our skill levels up, increases our ability to create fills and other expressive forms, gives us insight into how a passage can be better structured during live performances, let's us hear ourselves in private so we can discover how good or bad we are at certain things, lets us create recordings for posterity, and provides incredible editing functions through MIDI - something that's very difficult to do on the Genos.

There's just one problem - it's darn near impossible for most people to do it so why mention it in the manuals and promo materials?! Even recording the raw tracks on the Genos and splitting them apart in Cubase has its problems. Either Yamaha or Steinberg needs to come up with an exact procedure on how to achieve this or drop it altogether and stop pushing the Genos as a "great recording device."

Eileen, you make some excellent points. Thank you for those . There are two types of home players. Those who want to sit down for an hour or so and play some tunes (a wonderful and satisfying activity, which is great for the fingers and mind) and those who need to keep current on about 200 songs for the various bands they play in. In other words - work. I am currently in 5 bands and am about to join a sixth. Of those, three bands will need the Genos arranger keyboard functions. The other three are just piano, e.piano, organ, brass, strings, and woodwinds. As you can see, the Genos is the perfect tool for the job. I really don't need a Montage. Problem is, I'd still like to record the Genos but...well enough said.

Now we're way off topic 🤣! Back to the world of dreams...

[Jeff Hollande]

IMHO the Ketron Event is not better nor worse than all other comparable competitors ' high end arrangers. It is often a matter of experience, choice and taste.
All depends on what the player needs, expects and wants.

All  these arranger keyboards have their advantages, disadvantages, differences, pros and cons, I guess.
They have one thing almost in common though : approx. the same enduser price.

The service after sales might be different depending on where the customer is living.

Finally the enduser is the decision maker and after a certain period of time this person will find out whether he/she made the right decision or not.

JH

[EileenL]

I have just watched the two Ketron videos and am now less impressed. Will defiantly be sticking with Yamaha.

[Jeff Hollande]

Most of us will prefer to stick with Yamaha, I guess.

For many years we all are so used to play Yamaha's arrangers, styles etc.and ... if one is happy there is no reason to kill the Beast.

JH

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Really there is no great hardship integrating the Genos with Cubase.
You just input the Genos by selecting Genos from a drop down list and it recognises the Input for the keyboard.
You setup the inspector now once and you can import a song that you have made on the Genos and you are good to go for editing etc.
The beauty of Cubase is you have best of both worlds, the Genos and Countless software synths like the Korg Collection, Sampletank Arturia collection.
All Cubase needs is a little RTFM!!!
Once you get used to using it then you can use it's Control room for such things like Sonarworks Headphone and Speaker room correction and other things that can stay in there which do not affect mixdowns.
It all comes down to what you want to do.
I do not gig so time and bedroom studio fun is my game.Real Saxy!!


All the Best
John
Ps I am 71 now and still going for it!! Why!! "Why not"!!!

[mikf]

How many arranger owners do you think actually care about Cubase integration with their arranger keyboard? if I look at he posts on this subject my impression that on this forum there is less than 10 people who raise this. 
I understand that for some it is important, and it is a source of frustration to those people, but in the big picture, is it really something that Yamaha needs to have high on their list to address??
Mike

[BogdanH]

I'm mostly interested on what's possible to be done on keyboard itself and how easy/difficult is that to accomplish. That was actually the reason why I decided for an arranger. I mean, if I would be ready to spend time (or just enjoyed doing that) on DAW, then I would just buy some better midi keyboard instead -and probably save some money at that.
The possibility to connect an arranger keyboard to PC (DAW) and make further modifications is good for sure. But in my opinion, that shouldn't be seen as some special feature of keyboard itself... it's simply expected that one can do that with every decent arranger.

And (again) speaking for me, I don't need 800 voices: give me 150 exceptional voices and an easy way to modify them on keyboard. I don't need 800 styles: give me 150 unique styles which I can easy modify on keyboard. And finally, I don't need YEM: give me something that actually deserves that name. Almost forgot: give me better hardware quality 

Ah yes.. Ketron. I watched some videos and nothing changed: I still think it looks nice.. and that's pretty much all. I'm still waiting for "in-depth" review (impressions, opinions) from end user who's coming from Yamaha. And untill that happens, I kinda lost interest on Ketron "news" for now.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

is it really something that Yamaha needs to have high on their list to address??

Obviously not. Then, they should de-emphasize it in their literature.

To John's excellent point - I think one of the big issues with Cubase in general is it was never and shall never be a program for the novice, even their entry level stuff. Steinberg could care less about the rookies. They only cater about advanced --> pro level users. This makes it even more difficult to integrate any arranger.

John, I've done exactly what you mentioned and there are still a ton of things to set up that always go wrong. There's absolutely zero help from Yamaha or Steinberg. They're useless.

I agree 100% that using a cheap MIDI controller keyboard and VST voices is the easiest route and provides a far superior sound than the Genos. Compared to decent VST voices, the Genos is not bad but lacks in many areas. The big difference is, I paid nearly $6,000 for a keyboard you're supposed to integrate with a DAW. So much for that idea !

If I'm to get back into recording, I'll use my $6,000 MIDI controller and buy a bunch of VST instruments and drum patterns. That way, I'll be doubling my investment where I shouldn't have to. Hey, it's only money.

[kiplis]

Ah yes.. Ketron. I watched some videos and nothing changed: I still think it looks nice.. and that's pretty much all. I'm still waiting for "in-depth" review (impressions, opinions) from end user who's coming from Yamaha. And untill that happens, I kinda lost interest on Ketron "news" for now.

I've had one Ketron arranger, several Tyros and now a Genos. After watching the Polish gentleman's performance where he skillfully played the Ketron Event, and reading some preliminary information, I became very interested in the Event.

After watching a few more videos, especially AjamSonic Tutorial Videos #1 and 2, I totally lost my interest. In my opinion, Event doesn't offer (to me) anything new that would make me to switch or replace Genos. But, I'm only speaking for myself now.

Let's hope that Yamaha will bring something new to the table soon, because Genos is already a bit old technology, although it is great as an INSTRUMENT.

[keynote]

I paid nearly $6,000 for a keyboard you're supposed to integrate with a DAW. So much for that idea !

Sorry for your frustration, but Cubase isn't the only DAW that can work with the Genos. I use Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, and it integrates and works just fine with the Genos. Sadly, Cakewalk owner Gibson pulled the plug several years ago, but Bandlab finally picked up the pieces and now offers Sonar for free. Mine is the non-Bandlab standalone version, updated to just before Gibson pulled the plug.

Yep, the Genos costs an arm and a leg alright, and therefore Yamaha should focus more on giving its premier flagship arranger(s) the same attention to detail that they give the workstation line. More music/keyboard professionals than ever are buying high-end arrangers to use as sketch tools to compose songs, etc., so it makes sense to expand its top-of-the-line Genos 2/3/4/5 capabilities that Yamaha invests currently in its workstation line of keyboards e.g. Motif, Montage, etc. What are we, chopped liver? 

The Genos is indeed a big step up from the Tryos 5, but I don't think Yamaha is going to rest on its laurels, do you? Sounds like Lee is getting ready to toss the Genos and replace it with an excellent controller keyboard and invest in some excellent VSTi's on the market, which could save a person a lot of money (compared to buying a $6,000 Genos) if you want to go that route. In fact, you can get a beaucoup amount of decent VST for free if you know where to look. Me, I like a hardware keyboard that has everything at my fingertips. Genos raised the bar at the time, but 5 years on and with technology blazing ahead, it will be nice when Yammie finally releases a new Genos and a new Montage keyboard, hopefully sooner than later, that will incorporate some of these new technology standards currently on the market. USB 3.2 2nd Gen would be nice for starters. HDMI, a real (interchangeable) SSD connected to a SATA3 or PCI-e interface. An HD compliant LCD/OLED main screen. A QUAD/HEXA/OCTA core CPU, the faster, the better. MIDI 2.0. You get the drift. 

All the best,
Mike

[keynote]

Here is another new Ketron Event YouTube video. This video also demonstrates the Event's Vocal Harmonizer feature, which sounds very good in my opinion. Now if we could just get one of the Ketron Event owners to do a comprehensive factory sound demo. Currently, we've heard just bits and pieces of the actual internal sounds on the Event. I'd love to hear more of the Organs, Woodwinds, Brass, Strings, Accordions, Choirs, E. Guitars, Acoustic Guitars, Percussion, Bass, Pads, Synths, Drum Kits, Pianos, E. Pianos. You know, the whole kit & kaboodle.  Any takers? If you have an Event, make your voice and the Event's voice(s) heard on YouTube. The keyboard community will thank you. Without further ado... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDoWoC9q9I

All the best,
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Mike. I'll have to give Cakewalk another try. If it's real easy, I can do the mechanical stuff in it and the editing in Cubase. You're right about VSTs. There is a boatload out there if you don't need Hans Zimmer quality 🤣.

[keynote]

Hans Zimmer plays at least 5 instruments I know of, including the piano, keyboards, synthesizer, guitar, and banjo.  He is an incredibly versatile musician and can create amazing music with any of these instruments I understand. Reminds me of my Uncle, who could basically pick up any musical instrument and start playing it with proficiency. He was a college music teacher/educator and a choir director, and he could really belt out the tunes. Wonderful singing voice and an all around super nice guy. Hans Zimmer is a fantastic film score composer/music producer as you know, so yes, getting VSTi's with impeccable sound quality will cost you, but even major players in the VSTi making business have deals on their products during certain times of the year which is something to consider if you go that route.

All the best,
Mike         

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

I wonder if a pro midi keyboard will not replace the traditional, very expensive arranger keyboard of today.
Much sooner than we may expect ?
See what happened to the organ market ...

More and more the midi keyboard becomes very popular,  far less expensive, and ... the sky is the limit due to the latest and future music software development, IMHO.
Daily new software has been introduced and a lot of this software is free of charge.
Wait and see.

JH

[soundphase]

The main advantage of arrangers is the interface that brings together basic midi messages to produce increasingly complex combinations of midi messages from keys and buttons, tailored to the type of sound we want.

Until the controls for these high-level combinations are standardised, arrangers will not be replaced by standard tools (computers and midi keyboards).

VST is one of the first standards, but it is not yet sufficient.

[Jeff Hollande]

Nowadays the technology of midi keyboards ( controllers )  goes very fast though.

Today e.g. - in professional pro modern recording studio's - a midi controller keyboard is becoming more and more an additional music tool.
It might be possible, who knows,  these computer controlled instruments will replace the present synths and arranger keyboards in the near future ?

Indeed, without software the present midi controller keyboard is completely useless : at least the player needs always a laptop or pc, an external good sound card, amplifier(s) and speakers but ... without software the today's arranger keyboards are no longer so conceivable either, I guess.

I have been told it looks like younger musicians prefer midi controller keyboards due to the much lower purchasing price and the limitless software challenges.

Time will tell. 

Best wishes, JH

[BogdanH]

...
I have been told it looks like younger musicians prefer midi controller keyboards due to the much lower purchasing price and the limitless software challenges. 

-that's an important factor for sure: one can start with few hundred bucks and make very good music. And maybe more important, "upgrade" path is much cheaper as well! -in that sense, an arranger keyboard is almost a luxury.
But... it depends on how we prefer to use our instrument. Speaking for me, when I get an itch to play a little, I turn keyboard on and start playing. Or someone says "nice keyboard you have there.. would you play something?"... power on and here we go. Is not that quick and simple in case of midi keyboard (PC power on, load software, load instruments, set this and that, everything connected?...).
I think midi keyboard is more a "studio" approach and arranger is more a "jam" approach. Ok, for "at home" player it doesn't make much difference, though.. is more a personal preference.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

I hope they never phase out the arranger keyboard. About 50%-60% of my income is from the arranger side of the Genos. The other is from playing it like a regular keyboard/synth. Before the Genos versatility, I used to bring two or three keyboards to all my gigs.

I just hope Yamaha improves the piano, e.piano, and B3 sounds on Genos 2. The rest of the voices are great. The styles and their technology are now VERY dated and need a complete overhaul. This must all be done at an economical price to users. Genos is now way overpriced even without the competition.

[fozzie]

Ketron Event Manual

https://www.ketron.it/prodotto/event#1617885421095-217f0beb-a7cf

/fozzie

[mikf]

Companies don't phase things out because alternatives become available. They phase them out because we stop buying. At the moment there is still a significant growing market for arrangers, because although there are other cost effective ways to create the same ends, none are yet nearly as convenient as the arranger. And the people buying them (over 50s ) like convenience and ease of use. They are generally not going to be attracted to the multiple bits, computer software, wires everywhere modular approach. Now we might stop buying arrangers in the future because technology moves on and makes something overall better/cheaper. But that is not on the horizon yet. That's why two companies just launched TOTL arrangers.
Mike

[BogdanH]

Ketron Event Manual

Thanks for posting.
I made a quick overview.. and of course one can't get the impression of keyboard just by reading manual. But what did somehow surprise me is Event's user interface (content appearance on display): no matter in what section, content looks the same.. buttons and nothing but buttons... and all look the same. I hoped for more visual presentation, so it would be easier to see "where we are" in settings and what we're changing. It appears to me, like developer would lack "aesthetic" imagination.
As said, is just my first impression, which tells nothing about actual usability.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

I agree, for the time being,  the arranger keyboards are easier to use than midi controller keyboards.

The latest high end arrangers are 5x more expensive than the present average midi controller keyboards. Even 88 note midi keyboards are becoming popular day by day.
As Mike mentioned in his reaction most arrangers are sold to people older than 50+. More than 85% of these buyers are home players. They are making music for fun only.

Nowadays younger people are used to work with computers / software ( BTW, most of them cannot afford to buy a new arranger of approx. + 5,000 US$ - even for most of us such an amount of money costs us an arm and a leg today -   ).

I should not be surprised the midi controller keyboard's market share might be very important in the near future.
Computer technology is growing very fast. Time does not stand stlll and ...  we ... are getting older and older. 

Best regards, JH

[keynote]

Midi controller keyboards are getting more advanced too. Aftertouch, and other high-end features, are becoming commonplace on midi controller keyboards. The problem though is trying to play in a live setting. That involves working with a computer laptop where the VSTI's reside and ensuring everything goes off without a hitch. You need a powerful laptop with a fast SSD and a lot of DDR4/5 memory to handle the virtual instruments within your DAW. It can be done, but if you run into any type of glitch, it can be a real shock to you and your audience since you would likely have to halt the show and fix the glitch before proceeding... as your audience heads for the exit... while you fiddle around trying to get things back on track. Any who, here's another Ketron Event demo for you all to check out. The person used a custom style and voices to create a fantastic Big Band tune. The Event has a great live band sound similar to the Korg Pa5X. Yamaha has some real competition needless to say. Those Italians really know the art of music and sound reproduction.  Excellent Brass & Drums that truly raises the bar another notch in realism in my opinion. Ketron has a real hit on its hands. The Event should be their biggest selling high-end arranger thus far, I dare say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcBm5x7Guw0

All the best,
Mike

[travlin-easy]

Having spent more than 3 decades as an on stage musician/singer/entertainer, there is no way in Hell that a midi keyboard would appeal to me, or any other pro entertainer that I knew during that time. Those midi controller keyboards have been around for a long time, but only a handful of individuals seem to be purchasing them. I have a nephew who has one of the busiest recording studios in Baltimore, he has a midi controller keyboard, and most of the time, it sits in the corner drawing dust. It is rarely used, mainly because of the complexity of the software and the horrendous editing time involved just to create a single song. He also has a couple arranger keyboards as well, and they get used a lot more frequently.

As for Yamaha, or any other company ignoring 85 percent of it's market, us older folks, I don't think this will happen. Old folks can usually afford a $5,500 arranger keyboard because we worked hard and saved our money. We just write a check for what we need and never seem to look back.

The home organ retailers were nearly all piano stores to begin with. When Hammond and others came along with an easy to play, home organ, that were often demonstrated in large shopping mall hallways, the old folks came along and purchased those overly-priced monsters that required a large moving van and a half-dozen big men to bring it into the living room. Some sold for more than $70,000 and the market held up for years.

Then, arranger keyboard entered the picture, with prices beginning at about $500 for the Yamaha PSR-500, which I, and several other local players used for nearly a decade playing the nite club and bar circuit. We usually only updated when something that had amazing styles and voices came out, and that we could easily transition to while maintaining a relatively busy gig schedule.

From my point of view, arranger keyboards, particularly Yamaha and Korg, will be around long after my untimely passing. As for the midi keyboards, well they require a lot of time and work, both of which are 4 letter words that our younger generation, on a whole, doesn't seem to enjoy. There is no instant gratification, with a midi keyboard, but there still is when a new arranger keyboard arrives in the stores.

Just my .02 cents worth,

Gary

[BogdanH]

... he has a midi controller keyboard, and most of the time, it sits in the corner drawing dust. It is rarely used, mainly because of the complexity of the software and the horrendous editing time involved...
...
There is no instant gratification, with a midi keyboard..

Agree on that.
That's why I said midi keyboard is more for "studio work" (composing, producing) and less for (enjoying) playing only. Or as we use to say: right tool for right job 

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

I agree with your words.

There is a huge difference between an arranger, a synth and a midi controller keyboard, as we all know.

In most cases professional musicians will go for a synth when they often are working in recording studio's and/or playing in a band, right ?

An other very important group of professionals, the giggers, will mostly go for a high end pro arranger keyboard.
This instrument offers them the choice between a one man band, playing in a band ... or both.
These people expect to play a pro instrument that is very trustworthy with a real professional sound to offer their audience an unforgettable evening.

The midi controller keyboard is more made for ( young ) musicians who love to work with software to create patiently their own music at an affordable price.

BTW : For me a professional musician is a person who earns his daily income from making music. 

Last but not least we have an other group, like most members of this forum : the home player. 
The average age is approx. 50 years old and/or older.
For them making music is a passionate hobby. Money is not their first priority.
They prefer to own the latest reliable arranger with a great sound, unlimited technical possibilities and, if possible, easy in use.

Your comments are very welcome. 

Best regards, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

An other very important group of professionals, the giggers, will mostly go for a high end pro arranger keyboard.
This instrument offers them the choice between a one man band, playing in a band ... or both.
These people expect to play a pro instrument that is very trustworthy with a real professional sound to offer their audience an unforgettable evening.

This is one of the best comments on this thread. Well put, Jeff 👍.

[EileenL]

You are right there Jeff.
  The majority of keyboard owners are home players who have worked hard all there lives and then retire and a lot who used to play an instrument when younger want to return to it as they now have much more time. Over here in the UK many venues have closed or can no longer afford live players. Those people are now having to do something different to earn money but Music will always be a great hobby. Looking forward to a new Genos when it comes along.