New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

If we buy ( internet ) a new arranger keyboard here in The Netherlands, we have 30 days ( after invoice date ) to send it back ( without explanation ) in the original packaging.
Transport will be paid by the supplier.
No damage, in original packaging = 100% money back within 14 days.

JH

[Sokratis1974]

Very well summarized Sokratis -one can't repeat these things often enough.

Most here are hobby musicians and too many times we (wish to) buy new keyboard just to have new toy to play with. But if we don't know why exactly we need new keyboard, disappointment usually follows. What I'm saying is, someone can be happier with PSR-SX600 than someone with Genos. Not because PSR-SX600 would be better, but because he made right decision for him. Yes, Genos has "this and that", but who cares if "this and that" is later never used. When buying, we shouldn't look for "the best" keyboard... we should concentrate on things that matter to each one individually.

Having SX700 for few years now (and two Yamaha's before), I know quite well what I like, what I'm missing, what I wish to be better and what I need. If I find such keyboard and I can afford it, I'll buy it -doesn't matter who makes it.
Finding objective information is not easy... because nobody talks about limitations and explains them (as practical consequences). Yes, if lucky, we can tryout keyboard for few minutes in local store. But let's be frank, the only thing we can check is keybed and panel buttons -and that's it. There's not enough time to get an impression of style & voices management, style & voice creation, connectivity flexibility, recording options, etc.
And then, there are "little things" that we many times don't even notice. For example, on Ketron Event, wav sample length is limited to 6 seconds, which in my opinion, is extremely short. I don't know, maybe long sustain is solved differently on Event, but nobody talks about that. Ok, I'm not some pianist, and so 6sec is probably not an issue for me... but it's an 5000€ keyboard, where piano (or any voice) is expected to be flawless -it's simply assumed at that price. That is, Event might be excellent keyboard for me, but how can I know that, if nobody honestly talks about it's limitations and workarounds?

I think above is the main reason why we tend to stick with brand we have... we just try to avoid bad surprises (especially at high priced keyboards). On the other hand, by doing that way, we maybe miss having "the perfect" keyboard 

Bogdan

Hello Bogdan.
I Agree. As for the sampler and very short samples, yes. This is a serious problem due to several factors which unfortunately I cannot analyze for many reasons. But as we said before, every instrument has its positives and negatives. Everyone can evaluate and judge what is right for them. What I would describe as a very strong point of Event is the ease of creating new styles (midi or audio) with tools that are particularly creative and easy to use. But I say it again. Everyone must assess their own needs. And this evaluation I think today is much easier than ever. Just my opinion.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

I absolutely agree one has to buy an arranger he wants and he likes. Why not ? We are all free people. 

At the end of this year we might expect 3 highend arrangers : Ketron, Korg and hopefully Yamaha.
However all individual arrangers have a different OS.

I am very familiar with Yamaha's OS for more than 22 years now. Never let me down.
I have gathered so much Yamaha software during all these years.

Gimme one simple reason why a happy customer should go for another brand ... 

Best regards, JH

[keynote]

Keyboard manufacturers such as the Big Three i.e. Yamaha, Korg, and Roland, and yes Ketron too, have been shifting to a mostly online purchase format for keyboards in particular. Over five years ago, I purchased my Genos at a local Guitar Center mostly because if there was any problem or it didn't suit me I could return it for a full refund, whereas, most places in the digital realm you have to pay shipping and usually a humongous restocking free if something doesn't work out. But today keyboard manufacturers, etc., I think prefer the online business model because of the convenience and most likely the cost savings vs. brick & mortar stores which a lot of people don't have access to for one reason or another. So if and when the Genos2 is finally released, be prepared to buy it at an online retailer in most cases. Guitar Centers today have slim pickings of keyboards in stock, and I suspect because of the Genos2's astronomical price tag Guitar Center will likely not stock them in their stores, at least here in the USA anyway. That's really unfortunate because there will be no way to 'demo' beforehand to see if the product meets people's needs. I think as time goes on, the phrase "sight unseen" will continue to gather momentum because of the internet scheme of things which, from what I've read, manufacturers are leaning towards more and more. Now watch Yamaha blow my hypothesis right out of the water regarding the Genos2.  But that's fine and dandy with me because I'd really prefer to play the Genos2 in person before I decide to empty my pockets. 

All the best, Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Almost 2 decades ago Roland ended their high end arranger's production.
Before that time Roland were the market leaders.

As far as I know Roland have never informed their customers why they left this high end arranger market.
Simultaneously 2 Italian producers ended all their arranger production and closed their manufactury.
Ketron is the only Italian manufacterer left.

In 2002 Yamaha lauched their Tyros and were the market leaders in a blink of an eye.
Since then Yamaha never lost their #1 position and are still the market leaders today ... for the next decades.  , IMO


JH

[BogdanH]

@Sokratis
I've mentioned sample length limitation just as an example, where many will say "is not issue at all" and others "is unacceptable for me" -that's why it's important to know them. Another example would be for Korg PA5x, where song recording (onboard) is only possible in mp3 format. For me, that's not a problem at all (if really needed, one can still record in wav format by using Line out), for someone else however, it can be a "no-go".
And being at that, every keyboard brand/model has some limitations.. the only question is, which of them we are ready to accept. And many times we must also be ready to adapt, so we can benefit of having some features which doesn't exist on another keyboard -we shouldn't be afraid of learning new things.

@Jeff
Yes, a good return policy is always welcome and makes decision easier. And to answer your question: if you're happy with particular brand, then I see no reason you to change
As for Yamaha being a market leader... Casio might be market leader in wrist watches, but Rolex is still considered as better brand 

Bogdan

[Danny1972]

In 2002 Yamaha lauched their Tyros and were the market leaders in a blink of an eye.
Since then Yamaha never lost their #1 position and are still the market leaders today ... for the next decades.  , IMO


JH

Hi Jeff,

Are we talking in the home market as I would agree with you on that one. I think in a live situation (or as a one man band) I think it's a bit more open and even than that.

[Danny1972]

And being at that, every keyboard brand/model has some limitations.. the only question is, which of them we are ready to accept. And many times we must also be ready to adapt, so we can benefit of having some features which doesn't exist on another keyboard -we shouldn't be afraid of learning new things.

That is very true and what I also said in a round about way in one of my earlier posts. Out of all the major keyboards out there, the one that has the least amount of limitations and suits your needs more is the instrument you should be using for whatever purpose it is you're using it for.

For example, I have had my Ketron Event for nearly a week now and I have identified some of it's limitations already when I compare it to my SD60 (which the Event succeeded), but it's strengths is what's allowing me to keep it overall.

As for Yamaha being a market leader... Casio might be market leader in wrist watches, but Rolex is still considered as better brand 

That is very true as well.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

Rolex might be the winner if we talk about turnover and quality.
I cannot afford a Rolex.

I am not in the position to say what is the best arranger. Who am I ?
As Sokratis well said : all of them have their pros & cons.
In this case it is not a price problem. All are approx. EU 5,000,--.
It is only a matter of taste, experience, needs and last but not least budget, IMHO.

For the time being my Yamaha Ty4 is still a winner for my personal applications.
No rush at all for me to upgrade.

I cannot convince my wife nor myself I need a new expensive arranger for the time being.
Other expenses have priority in 2023.

Take care, my friend
JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Hello Danny :

IMHO Yamaha is #1 as far as arranger's worldwide sales turnover is concerned.
As far as I have heard : 90% of Yamaha's high end arrangers are owned by home players ( for hobby only ).

It would be very interesting to let us know why you are happy with your new Event.
BTW ... I am only interested in the pros. 

Thanks in advance.
Best regards, JH

[DrakeM]

@SokratisCasio might be market leader in wrist watches, but Rolex is still considered as better brand 
Bogdan

Nope ... Casio keeps the same time and date as a Rolex does. Rolex is more expensive to do the same job as a Casio. So, that just proves some folks have more money with nothing to blow it on or are just really bad a handling money. 

Drake

[DrakeM]

I just checked and all Rolex watches come with only a 5 year warranty. For $5,000 or more for a watch, that ought to be a LIFETIME warranty. Rolex warranties are now totally untransferable.

By the way ... all the Rolex watches I viewed only have the TIME and DATE (the same as a TIMEX watch). My $22 Casio has the TIME, DATE and tells most importantly what "DAY" it is. Also it came with a 7 year battery. 

I just did the math: By purchasing a $22 Casio verses a $5000 Rolex, I earn an average of $448 every year (for life) by getting the Casio.

[ton37]

LOL, I don't have a watch on at all. So I save even more! Besides, my wife does tell me what day it is and when and what I have to do .. 

[Christophermoment]

I just checked and all Rolex watches come with only a 5 year warranty. For $5,000 or more for a watch, that ought to be a LIFETIME warranty. Rolex warranties are now totally untransferable.

By the way ... all the Rolex watches I viewed only have the TIME and DATE (the same as a TIMEX watch). My $22 Casio has the TIME, DATE and tells most importantly what "DAY" it is. Also it came with a 7 year battery. 

I just did the math: By purchasing a $22 Casio verses a $5000 Rolex, I earn an average of $448 every year (for life) by getting the Casio.

Couldn't agree more.

[rikkisbears]

Another example would be for Korg PA5x, where song recording (onboard) is only possible in mp3 format. For me, that's not a problem at all (if really needed, one can still record in wav format by using Line out)
Bogdan

Hi Bogdan, it does have a 16 track sequencer, ( doesn't do quick record currently)  or are you referring to the audio recording side of things , where it does only record in mp3 format.

[rikkisbears]

Hi ,
snobbery, when hubby bought his brand new  $70 k BMW 10 years ago.  He pulled out his $12 flip phone. Can you please connect this via Bluetooth ( neither of us could work out how to do it) , the car yard techie looked at him , can't you afford something slightly better, hubby quipped back, yep , I could have spent $18.😀 . Techie took the hint. haha.

[Sokratis1974]

Hi Guys :

I absolutely agree one has to buy an arranger he wants and he likes. Why not ? We are all free people. 

At the end of this year we might expect 3 highend arrangers : Ketron, Korg and hopefully Yamaha.
However all individual arrangers have a different OS.

I am very familiar with Yamaha's OS for more than 22 years now. Never let me down.
I have gathered so much Yamaha software during all these years.

Gimme one simple reason why a happy customer should go for another brand ... 

Best regards, JH

No reason when there is no reason.

[BogdanH]

Hi Rikki,

Hi Bogdan, it does have a 16 track sequencer, ( doesn't do quick record currently)  or are you referring to the audio recording side of things , where it does only record in mp3 format.

I was referring to on-board audio recording of the song that musician plays, which can only saved in mp3 format. As I mentioned, I don't see that as limitation -it's good enough for listening and online (Youtube) publishing. As for "serious" work, it's expected that keyboard will be connected to PC via separate mixer/audio-interface and in this case, we can record in wav format (for further mixing and fine tuning).
And again, I just mentioned mp3 "limitation" as an example.. to show how different wishes, needs and priorities we all have.

...
By the way ... all the Rolex watches I viewed only have the TIME and DATE (the same as a TIMEX watch). My $22 Casio has the TIME, DATE and tells most importantly what "DAY" it is....

Yeah, is funny with these things... now imagine: For 5000€ TOTL keyboard one needs to buy loudspeakers separately, while 700€ SX600 has them already built in -I'm sure you get the point

Bogdan

[EileenL]

The reason for separate speakers on the flagship was to keep the weight down.

[soundphase]

Why pay for low quality internal speakers when this type of instrument expects to be connected to professional quality speakers or monitor speakers ...

[rikkisbears]

Hi Rikki,
I was referring to on-board audio recording of the song that musician plays, which can only saved in mp3 format. As I mentioned, I don't see that as limitation -it's good enough for listening and online (Youtube) publishing. As for "serious" work, it's expected that keyboard will be connected to PC via separate mixer/audio-interface and in this case, we can record in wav format (for further mixing and fine tuning).
And again, I just mentioned mp3 "limitation" as an example.. to show how different wishes, needs and priorities we all have.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan, thought that might be the case.  For me mp3 would be more than enough
(IF I actually recorded 😀) and as you said for serious work, one would use pc.
Actually I used to record sx900 backing tracks  for my es920 piano, (when I had them in seperate  rooms).It was able to play  audio files ,mp3 and wav. and I used to just be able to play along. I couldn't hear that much difference, so I just stuck with the mp3 format.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Soundphase has explained  "Why run a Rolls Royce on a Mini engine"

You know it makes sense

Genos speakers are so tinny and tries to make up the quality with a cheap boom box   "IMO"

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey John :

Yamaha are producing pro speakers especially designed for recording, mixing and mastering.

Perhaps they might consider to end the production of the present external speaker set for the Genos' successor ?
Just a thought.

JH

[mixermixer]

Speaking of speakers (haha), the SX900 speakers are pretty good for internal speakers, I can keep up with a band.

[Danny1972]

Hello Danny :

It would be very interesting to let us know why you are happy with your new Event.
BTW ... I am only interested in the pros. 

Thanks in advance.
Best regards, JH

Hi Jeff,

Yes of course to answer your question.

I am happy with the Event because of course what is the main reason why someone buys an instrument is because it sounds good, and yes the Event sounds excellent. The category of 'real' styles as they call it do sound exceptional. There's about over 100 of them and should cover most music genres.

I found the OS easy to use and work out, I haven't found any complications with it.

Sliders are organised really well. Touch screen is very responsive and very high res, you can change to many colours or themes or make your own but I'm happy with the default blue.

Sounds are top notch and I'm really pleased that Ketron have added some really nice choirs & vocals that are in line with the best of them out there.

One of the most beautiful things about it is its design, it's actually the lightest Ketron at 32lbs compared to my beast of the SD60 at 42lbs, it's really slick & stylish without compromising the metal build quality, I think it's because Ketron made it as slim as possible.

There's maybe more things I could say but I do really like this arranger keyboard.

I've had it 6 days so far not even a week!

All the best to you.

[Jeff Hollande]

Let me first thank for your very interesting reply, Danny.

It looks like you are very pleased with this new high end arranger.
It also sounds like you have received what you were expecting and even much more. I am so happy for you.

CONGRATULATIONS !

I would be very grateful to let me know your net purchasing price.
If you can share this amount with me plse
be so kind to send me a PM.
If that is not possible for you I will understand and respect that.

Enjoy your new instrument !
Best wishes, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Speaking of speakers (haha), the SX900 speakers are pretty good for internal speakers, I can keep up with a band.

Must be a pretty quiet band . At any rate, good to hear (no pun intended).

[Danny1972]

Let me first thank for your very interesting reply, Danny.

It looks like you are very pleased with this new high end arranger.
It also sounds like you have received what you were expecting and even much more. I am so happy for you.

CONGRATULATIONS !

I would be very grateful to let me know your net purchasing price.
If you can share this amount with me plse
be so kind to send me a PM.
If that is not possible for you I will understand and respect that.

Enjoy your new instrument !
Best wishes, JH

Hi Jeff,

I have PM'd you as requested

You are quite right I am pleased with the Event but you asked me only to write down the positives so I did ! By no means is this a perfect keyboard, it has it's quirks and annoyances as well, there is no perfect keyboard out there.

I really want to see Yamaha make some movements and noise now about their next offering because otherwise it's going to be a very long time before we hear anything from Ketron and Korg seeing that they've released their flagships pretty close to each other and can't expect anything new from them for a very long time, maybe Korg would do a Pa1000 follow up with the Pa5x design and Ketron will do a 61 key Event with speakers but even then they will be years off I should think. So come on Yamaha, give us some more to talk about, hint hint !!!

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Danny. Us Yamaha users are getting impatient. Thanks for the update 👍.

[john smies]

Hi Jeff,

sent you a PM as well.
please reply using my email:  pa******@**********.nl

greetings,
John Smies


Edit 2023-03-29 by overover: Removed email address.
Please do not post your email address in the public forum. Registered users can see your email anyway by opening your profile (by clicking on your user name, on the left side of one of your posts).