Transpose Part (voice)

[DerekA]

@Jimlainng, than the above mentioned solution to archieve that by using one of the the live functions could be an option, right?

I don't think it will work -I'm not convinced it can do anything other than a full octave shift, or +/- 50 cents.

[DerekA]

I'm feeling 95% sure I did this on a Tyros!  At present, we can 'shift' L, R1, R2, R3 by octave (-2, -1, 0, +1, +2).

I don't this option has ever been possible on the Yamaha arranger lines - only ever the full octave or +/- 50 cents.

[ckobu]

Unfortunately, we don't have a note shift in any Yamaha arranger that would solve the problem @Jim is having.
We call it TERCE and there is a way to adjust the background tones, but the process is a bit complicated. I explained it in this video.

https://youtu.be/RfmEVpMV-78?si=fCg_KZz9Huderzho

[ton37]

I don't think it will work -I'm not convinced it can do anything other than a full octave shift, or +/- 50 cents.

Have you tried? It worked for me. @JimL. wrotes he will look if it works for him? We'll see/read his reaction. 

[KurtAgain]

"Major 3rd is +4 semi-tones"... that's only a rule for first note for specific key -but that's not true for whole scale of particular key.
For example, if we wish to play major thirds in C-major scale, then it must look like this:
C+4semi=C+E
D+3semi=D+F
E+3semi=E+G
F+4semi=F+A
....
Take a look on video that I mentioned above, specifically at 10minutes.

Bogdan

Sorry Bogdan, but I think you're confusing something. A major third always comprises 4 semitone steps, regardless of the note and regardless of the key - at least in Western music. D+F and E+G in your example are not major thirds, but minor thirds.

In the video he changes the Scale Tuning. And that's something different.

[BogdanH]

hi Kurt,
I'm far from being an expert and maybe I do miss something.. but watch first 30seconds of ckobu's video (above).

Bogdan

[KurtAgain]

Bogdan, I think we mean different things.

By major third I mean this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_third
And by minor third I mean this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_third

From Wikipedia:

[...] the major third is a third spanning four semitones [...]

[BogdanH]

Wikipedia is right, of course. However, there's only example for C note of C major third:
C+4semi =C+E

By strictly following "four semi-notes rule", let's try to play D note in C major third by adding 4 semi-tones:
D+4semi =C+F#
-but that's not D in C major third: it's D in D major third.

Again, I have no musical education and so I stand to be corrected 

Greetings,
Bogdan

[KurtAgain]

Bogdan, maybe I understand the misconception now. Intervals do not depend on a scale. Not all thirds in a major scale are major thirds.

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(music)):

For example, in a C major scale the first note is C, the second D, the third E and so on. Two notes can also be numbered in relation to each other: C and E create an interval of a third (in this case a major third); D and F also create a third (in this case a minor third).

Without wanting to sound unpleasant, I have some musical education. I think we shouldn't continue to misuse this thread and better play on our keyboards. 

[pjd]

I looked for a note shift solution, again, and came up empty. The only assignable is "tuning" and that tunes the part up or down in cents (not semitones).

Jim, one potential solution is to create a custom voice in YEM. The custom voice is shifted up (or down) the desired number of semitones. For sure, this is a bit of work...

Your example of defining drawbar footages is a good example. Wish I could suggest an easy solution.

-- pj

[ckobu]

If Yamaha would enable the simple Note Shift in the Scale setting, which has existed since the old DX7, we could easily and quickly create our own Harmony as desired.
https://youtu.be/hAWWso-kwC4?si=F8yJvicFJ2iuSd6F&t=438

[DerekA]

Have you tried? It worked for me. @JimL. wrotes he will look if it works for him? We'll see/read his reaction. 

Yes, I have.

The only options are to shift by octave, or +/- one half semitone.

[ton37]

Ok, if this doesn't work for the OP's question he will have to look for alternative solutions ... or stick/accept with what the Genos can  archieve 

[Joe H]

I agree with pj, the only way is to create a custom Voice in YEM and save as a single Voice pack. He could create several Voices like that and then save as a custom pack.

Joe H

[KurtAgain]

Just a thought: Don't the DSPs of the Genos have a pitch shift effect? I don't own Genos myself so I can't try it out.

[Amwilburn]

Wow, I feel like I should've jumped in much sooner...

Bogdan is 100% correct. You don't use the same exact distance between notes in semitones due to the nature of scales (+2,+2,+1,+2 +2+2,+1, etc) not having the same number of semitones between *intervals* (which Kurt also correctly pointed out).

When you Harmonize in C scale, even if you use a drop 6th harmony (requires the least amount of variation to maintain), at some points the harmony will be 8 semitones below the melody (C/E), at some points 9 semitones (B/D) and that's just music theory... Intervals are not the same as fixed semitone rangers *unless* you want to play in a 6 note, atonal scale? Which I doubt!

No, there wasn't an *additional* way to do this on T5 per se; but it *can* be accomplished on any Yamaha arranger. The simplest method I can think of is to assign pitch bend to a foot pedal, then specifiy the pitch bend up range (in the case of the OP's desired effect, +6 semitones) and then depress the pedal when needed.

And since you can assign pitch bend to 0 for the other 2 right voices, this is a simple way to produce the intended effect. There are other ways, including reassigning a mod wheel to do the pitch bend, and just leaving it shoved to the top (but as the Genos no longer has a mod wheel, maybe that's what you were thinking of). However, if you hit "lock" with the joystick all the way up, after assigning the Y axis to pitch bend, you'll get the same result.

And yes, you could use a pitch change DSP, but the effect won't be quite the same, as the notes, as you're shifting the sample at that point (try it, it soudns terrible). Actually, pitch bending the note is also shifting the sample (but in a midi triggered way, so it's better). Best of all would be if they allowed us to program a midi harmony with 0 source and 100 for the midi transposed notes (which you also have to do for the pitch shift dsp)


Mark

[pjd]

And yes, you could use a pitch change DSP, but the effect won't be quite the same, as the notes, as you're shifting the sample at that point (try it, it soudns terrible). Actually, pitch bending the note is also shifting the sample (but in a midi triggered way, so it's better). Best of all would be if they allowed us to program a midi harmony with 0 source and 100 for the midi transposed notes (which you also have to do for the pitch shift DSP)

Thanks, Mark and Kurt.

I tried the pitch shift effect and, as Mark noted, and you get an interesting effect. (Try +7 for a fifth.) "Interesting" might be useful, depending upon your state of mind. 

I also tried inserting a note shift Sy*** message into a VCE file: F0 43 10 4C 08 00 08 47 F7, where the 0x47 is +7 semitones. In theory, this should work. But, it breaks something really fundamental in Genos1. [Don't try this at home...]

-- pj

[jimlaing]

If it's not possible (in a simple way similar to how we now can Octave shift or de-tuning of a single 'part'), that is OK, and I'll happily keep enjoying playing my Genos.  It was just something I *thought* (perhaps mistakenly) that I'd done on an earlier arranger.  Maybe it was on my Technics KN arrangers that I have this memory!  :-)

Thanks for the responses and discussion!
-Jim

[ton37]

........

No, there wasn't an *additional* way to do this on T5 per se; but it *can* be accomplished on any Yamaha arranger. The simplest method I can think of is to assign pitch bend to a foot pedal, then specifiy the pitch bend up range (in the case of the OP's desired effect, +6 semitones) and then depress the pedal when needed.

And since you can assign pitch bend to 0 for the other 2 right voices, this is a simple way to produce the intended effect. There are other ways, including reassigning a mod wheel to do the pitch bend, and just leaving it shoved to the top (but as the Genos no longer has a mod wheel, maybe that's what you were thinking of). However, if you hit "lock" with the joystick all the way up, after assigning the Y axis to pitch bend, you'll get the same result.

And yes, you could use a pitch change DSP, but the effect won't be quite the same, as the notes, as you're shifting the sample at that point (try it, it soudns terrible). Actually, pitch bending the note is also shifting the sample (but in a midi triggered way, so it's better). Best of all would be if they allowed us to program a midi harmony with 0 source and 100 for the midi transposed notes (which you also have to do for the pitch shift dsp)


Mark

Correct, that was what I pointed out. Even you can do this with a slider or joystick+ hold. (Thought only the G2 has a new joystick function ?) It is the 'simpliest' way to try to  come 'close' to the specific setting that was asked for.  Oh well, it was good to delve in this 'practical theory'. The Genosses can do a lot, but not everything ...

[KurtAgain]

Jim, one last thought:

At the very beginning of this thread you wrote that you want to transpose a voice by seven semitones for a special effect. This is exactly an effect you can achieve with the Harmony function:

Activate:

• R1
• R2
• Harmony

Set Harmony to:

• Type: 1+5 (that is seven semitones, the so called "Power Chord")
• Assign: Multi (not Type Multi Assign)

Now the "1" is played by R1 and the "5" is played by R2.

And this always sounds good on every note because "1+5" is a "Perfect Fifth", it is neither major nor minor.

You can even realize your organ voices example by also tuning R2 to "Octave + 1".

Is that what you wanted to achieve?

[Patt22]

Hello KurtEncore

Well done, that's how I would have programmed it, with the harmonizer and by going to the effect's cogwheel, you can adjust the volume of the harmonized voice.
When I play a new Style, I always look at how Yamaha has programmed (via Direct Access) the harmonizer/arpeggiator on the OTS, including the cogwheel.
The Multi function is very rarely programmed in the original styles ... and yet!

[Amwilburn]

If it's not possible (in a simple way similar to how we now can Octave shift or de-tuning of a single 'part'), that is OK, and I'll happily keep enjoying playing my Genos.  It was just something I *thought* (perhaps mistakenly) that I'd done on an earlier arranger.  Maybe it was on my Technics KN arrangers that I have this memory!  :-)

Thanks for the responses and discussion!
-Jim

Yeah it may be possible on a KN, I haven't touched one in over 20 years, so I can't remember anymore (they shut down Technics instrument division in 2002) but they pedal solution is quite easy, and doesn't need an analog (FC3) pedal, just on or off is fine. But having a mod wheel (which the Genos lacks) would be even easier, which is why, as much as I like the joystick for guitar solos, I wish there were a mod weel still next to it. Mod wheels are superior for hold functions, like pitch shift, organ rotary speed, cross fade, and well... modulation 

You *could* also assign the pitch bend to a slider (direct Acess, then move the slider, then select voice)... oh wait, my mistake. That's only Genos 2. I just tested on the 2.13 Genos and it doesn't have that assignment. Stick with pedal, but know that the G2 has a lot more options for hold functions

The reason the 1+5 harmony doesn't work for a pitch shift of +7 is because you can't remove the original note (not yet anyway)

The pedal you'd have to remember to keep it depressed while shifting.

Mark

[KurtAgain]

The reason the 1+5 harmony doesn't work for a pitch shift of +7 is because you can't remove the original note (not yet anyway)

Mark, what do you mean with "you can't remove the original note"? You can by setting the volume of R1 to zero - but why should you?

If you set the Harmony type to "1+5" and set "Assign" to "Multi" and activate R1 and R2 then R1 plays only the original note and R2 plays only +7 semitones. With these settings R2 does not play the original note.

But what do you want to achieve?

[Amwilburn]

Mark, what do you mean with "you can't remove the original note"? You can by setting the volume of R1 to zero - but why should you?

If you set the Harmony type to "1+5" and set "Assign" to "Multi" and activate R1 and R2 then R1 plays only the original note and R2 plays only +7 semitones. With these settings R2 does not play the original note.

But what do you want to achieve?

You're right, I forgot about setting multi instead of a specific R1, R2, R3! Neat! But kind of wasteful: R3 won't sound at all, and you'll cutoff the sound for R1.

Doing the pedal pitch shift, you can play all 3 R1+R2+R3 (if so desired, although it would make more sense to do R3 onlly as the shift, and play R1 + R2 normally)

But still neat! I'd used the multi but never thought about using it to split the harmony like that (I use it to seperate Octaves); that's new use for me, thanks!

Mark

[jimlaing]

Yes, that method sounds like it would work ... I hadn't thought of using the "Harmony" feature as I assumed it would change the interval to match the chords I play, where in my examples I didn't want the interval to change.  What you wrote should be a workable way to do it . . .

Thanks!
Jim

[Patt22]

Hello,

What surprises me is that this little-known harmonizer option is so effective with an assignable pedal, I programmed it on my Mfc10 to be permanently accessible...
A little tip: as with the voice harmonizers, if you have an absence of harmonized voices while playing ... introduce a 7th, 4th or other chord that incorporates a note that the harmonizer can't find to make its harmony, hence the absence!

This Multi mode is very useful for separating solo instruments, particularly in Celtic styles, and can be combined with a pedal to open up cool harmony play ... by choosing voice combinations 1-2, 2-3, 1-3, 1-2-3 ... it enriches your playing nicely ...