If you're considering buying a Korg Pa5X...

[Danny1972]

Well many years ago Korg shared the same factory at Milton Keynes here in the UK.
  Now it is just Yamaha. I have been there quite a few times Have met many of the Yamaha teams over the years and they are the nicest people you would ever wish to meet.

Hi Eileen,

Is this the same location as the Yamaha Kemble shop ? It was so long ago but it was where I purchased the PSR 8000, which was my first ever TOTL keyboard, memory is quite fuzzy but I think it was a store but I don't know if the store still exists. I just remember having a great afternoon there and couldn't wait to experience the 8000, the car ride home felt like it never ended lol !

[Jeff Hollande]

I SAY NO SMOKE WITHOUT A FIRE!!!

Hi John :

Do not worry ... you will be one of the first owners of the Genos' successor. A nice 2023 X-Mas present, I guess. 
Unless ... Eileen already pre-ordered one.

JH

[tyrosman]

People who own both the Genos & Pa5X (like myself) are feeling great (who wouldn't?) and don't have any feelings hurt
People who invoke "hurt feelings" and "have an adult conversation" have usually run out of any credible arguments to offer in a debate, so I understand if you support the "Genos Good, Korg Bad" mantra!

hi Mark i have subscribed to your you on u tube what style did you use on castle on the hill

Uday

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Some members of this forum own both high end arrangers : the Genos and the PA5X.
What is the advantage for the player/user ?

Best wishes, JH

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Jeff

Do you mean Ambassador Eileen, lol

How can the Pax 5 be great if you cannot record straight into it's sequencer and change registrations to create a midi file.
For me i like to play the whole song so as to get that human feel and then do edits to tighten up.
I do know that evrything on the Pax is called something different, but hope everyone knows what i mean.
Like Lee says , the next Genos to work flawlessly with Cubase is a must and what i find really annoying is the flack that is left behind in a style. In Cubase you can see that note partials are all over the place and to have a clean style Cubase can do it, but it is time consuming and boring, it does make a hell of a difference to the ears.
In Cubase you do have a note delete. Have you noticed that you can hear notes in a style garble or glitch sometimes. In Functions you have a delete option where you choose the length and delete all en block, but still needs attention even after quantizing as gaps can appear.
It is all about the player hitting a fill or changing a registration a millisecond too late.
One day we all will be artificial Intelligence players when we all get chipped at birth   "Exterminate"!!
I find the now Genos does work great with Cubase, but certain things on the Genos could be better like seamless switching between registrations, fills and sounds,  but you have to make everything the same volume level in registrations to get smoother transitions.
It does get tricky when you have to time a fill just right or you get nothing or a little glltch. I would also love a way of making styles easier.
I have noticed sometimes after playing a few songs that when you change to another song registration it does not set up and stays the same as the last. I just switch machine off and on again and it rights's itself.
Apart from that more space for your own samples and I would like a Silver Machine next as it would not show all the dust after 10 seconds of cleaning it. If it can go sideways through time , i would definitely would be interested
Terrible for someone who has Psoriasis . "Out with the E45 or Farmology cream!" The pleasures of being an old flakey like me. .
it is not bad thankfully, but i have to clean my arm rest regularly on exec chair as i got it on my elbow
If anyone has a miracle cure for it ,i want to be the first one to know.
All the Best
John

May be of Interest --

https://www.epianos.co.uk/heres-my-best-guess-when-a-yamaha-genos-2-will-be-launched/

[mikf]

John, your use of the Genos is not mainstream. What percentage of the people buying an arranger care about studio level recording and complicated mixing /editing tools like Cubase - less than 5%.?? So why would Yamaha have that on their priorities?
I think we are seeing the Yamaha direction for arranger technology rolled out already in instruments like the CVP and the DGX. Or in very low cost instruments, which are both impulse buys and suitably priced for Asian markets. Not just my guess, Yamaha state this very clearly in their annual report.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi John :

IMHO the arranger is not comparable to any other music instrument. One exception maybe : the synthesizer.
All other " traditional music instruments " like a piano, an organ, a guitar, a violin, drums etc. are, what I would call " real and natural " music instruments " where the input ( 95% ) of the musician is the most important factor.

In my perception the arranger is a stronly computer related " music device ".
The use and influence of software might be much more important than the personal knowledge and skills of the musician.
Maybe in the near future we do not longer need musicians to play an arranger ... only knobs and switches.

Personally I like the arranger very much to create backing tracks without the help of other people. I can do it on my own.
The use of styles is easy, the sound quality is great, the applications and possibilities are limitless and last but not least ...
the arranger is a superb toy for an old man like me. 


Best wishes, JH

[robinez]

Hi Guys :

Some members of this forum own both high end arrangers : the Genos and the PA5X.
What is the advantage for the player/user ?

Best wishes, JH

I own the pa5x and the yamaha genos, and you raise a fair question.

My opinion is that for 99 percent of the musicians one keyboard is more then enough, you don't need them both.

For me I want to have both, but i'm not an ordinary keyboard player, I have a lot of synths / workstations and other gear in my studio and for me the korg Keyboard series gives me that freedom of playing like you play with a band. The yamaha can't do it the way Korg can. That also means that the korg is a lot more difficult to learn and operate, but if you are looking for a keyboard which is more like a blend between a synthesizer / keyboard then korg is the way to go. You can do a lot on the korg that the yamaha simply isn't capable of, but to be honest, this applies more to the synthesis / programming side then the arranger side.

The yamaha genos is MUCH stronger in the area of the standard way of keyboard playing (playing covers with left hand chords and right hand melody), the Genos has much better song based styles, much more features for playing covers (the registrations method on a genos is absolutely fantastic). A better implementation of the multipads if you just want to assign them to wav files, and much easier to learn how to operate it.

So that's why I have them both. Whenever I just want to play covers then most of the time I use the Yamaha Genos. But as soon as I want to Jam with a band with full control over what that band does and how it sounds, then I use the Korg Pa5x (and previously I used the Pa4x).

So it's not a matter of which keyboard is better then the other, it's a matter of preference for what you look for in a keyboard. Personally I think that most people will like the Yamaha Genos more because most people are playing covers of famous song and the Yamaha keyboards do provide that, the korg doesn't have much song styles, although the Pa5x now has a section with famous song styles, but not as many as on the yamaha genos.

[Lee Batchelor]

John, your use of the Genos is not mainstream. What percentage of the people buying an arranger care about studio level recording and complicated mixing /editing tools like Cubase - less than 5%.?? So why would Yamaha have that on their priorities?
I think we are seeing the Yamaha direction for arranger technology rolled out already in instruments like the CVP and the DGX. Or in very low cost instruments, which are both impulse buys and suitably priced for Asian markets. Not just my guess, Yamaha state this very clearly in their annual report.
Mike

From Mike's post, "So why would Yamaha have that on their priorities?" Fair question. And Mike is right - probably 5% or less want to record the Genos into Cubase. I submit that if he's right, then Yamaha needs to modify their manual and promo materials by removing the "Recording into a DAW section" or at least provide a disclaimer like, "Should you be crazy enough to try recording the Genos onto a DAW, keep a healthy dose of pills or alcohol by your side because you'll be ready to kill somebody after about 30 minutes of trying and falling through all the trap doors."

My take-away from this is if Yamaha says it can be done, then it either:

1) Make it easy for those who want to.
2) Caution people that while its possible, you will likely go insane trying unless you're a Yamaha engineer.
3) Mention that you can do it but don't waste your time. It was a dumb idea to even suggest it. Buy a Montage instead.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hello Robinez  :

I am following often your activities on YouTube.
You are a great player and very familiar with both high end arrangers.
Thank you for your interesting reply and very useful and wise comments.

Best wishes,

JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Jeff,

Would you post the link to Robinez's YouTube videos? Thanks .

[robinez]

Hi Jeff,

Would you post the link to Robinez's YouTube videos? Thanks .

here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x

Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c

Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI

Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw


Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8

Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs

Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q

[EileenL]

I will probably be called an old fuddy duddy but I buy a keyboard to play it and enjoy playing for others which I did for many years. Also played for many local shows. Have never been interested in getting a song to sound like the original. No point I can buy the CD.
  Never yet heard bits and pieces or flack left behind in a style when listening to lots of performances made by all sorts of players from beginners to really professional players. Yamaha has that great ability to allow you to make the keyboard sound as you want it to with just a little time exploring what you have.
  I am not interested in what you can do with the computer and music programmes want to know what I can do with just my keyboard.
  Would not want to buy a keyboard that was full of this stuff and pay for what I will never use.

[ton37]

We know..  , but luckily everone decides for themselves what one want to do and how.. as long as you'r a happy keyboarder 

[mikf]

Yes, everyone makes their own decision. But Yamaha also makes its own decisions, and that is going to be based on what sells. And I bet Eileen's statements apply to most arranger buyers.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Yes, everyone makes their own decision. But Yamaha also makes its own decisions, and that is going to be based on what sells.
Mike

Would it be a right conclusion to say Yamaha keyboards are real plug-and-play arrangers and Korg's arrangers are not ?

JH

[EileenL]

Hello Danny,
  Yamaha Milton Keynes is a very large building on an estate. They don't sell direct to the public and to my knowledge never have. I don't know of any shop on the estate.

[EileenL]

I suppose all keyboards can be classed as plug and play, but there are a lot of us that get great fun out of getting it how we want it ready for Gigs etc. Tweaking styles and voices is all part of the experience. Also creating your own multi pads.

[Lee Batchelor]

here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x
Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c
Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI
Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw
Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8
Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs
Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q

Thanks Robinez !

[Lee Batchelor]

I will probably be called an old fuddy duddy but I buy a keyboard to play it and enjoy playing for others which I did for many years. Also played for many local shows. Have never been interested in getting a song to sound like the original. No point I can buy the CD.
  Never yet heard bits and pieces or flack left behind in a style when listening to lots of performances made by all sorts of players from beginners to really professional players. Yamaha has that great ability to allow you to make the keyboard sound as you want it to with just a little time exploring what you have.
  I am not interested in what you can do with the computer and music programmes want to know what I can do with just my keyboard.
  Would not want to buy a keyboard that was full of this stuff and pay for what I will never use.

That doesn't make you a fuddy-duddy Eileen . It just puts in the 95% class. That's a good place to be .

[Divemaster]

What you've said Eileen is absolutely right.
I may be an old fuddy duddy too as I approach 77, but I do not want, and have zero interest in DAW's (aren't they things you walk through to get to another room)?
Or Synth (synthetic) type music or Garage music... it's where I keep my car.

The one and only time I connected my Tyros to a pc it never worked properly again... I won't be doing that in a hurry!
All this other noisy'stuff' is just superfluous.
Playing the keyboard I bought does it all for me, and as I've said before, if the next Yamaha offering turns out to be some beastly noise making conglomeration of Synth/DAW/Moog/ to wow over tanked up holidaymakers in Ibiza or Spain, it sure won't be finding me as a buyer.

Appreciate what you bought!

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Divemaster :

Our generation is getting old and so is our music choice.
We have to accept that ... there is no other choice if we want the latest hard -, software, styles and voices.
On the other hand we are lucky we have our " old toys " yet ...

Best wishes, JH

[mikf]

I don't think it has that much to do with age. I have been a musician since I was a teenager. I want to play the instrument, not operate it.
There are people with other interests on these arrangers, - creating sounds, producing music - but I don't think it's a huge percentage. Most just want to play. Reading forums like this can be misleading because I believe the people who just want to play, post less, or don't even bother to join forums. So it can give the impression that a lot of owners are  into DAWs etc, when it is not true.
Mike

[robinez]

Hi Divemaster :

Our generation is getting old and so is our music choice.
We have to accept that ... there is no other choice if we want the latest hard -, software, styles and voices.
On the other hand we are lucky we have our " old toys " yet ...

Best wishes, JH

here is my opinion about that.

It's why i'm a strong believer of that yamaha and korg have to modernize. The generation that is approaching for the keyboard market has their youth in the 90's and 2000. I really don't know anyone beneath 50 that is interested in the current keyboards. And let's face it, the yamaha genos and korg pa4x are still using the same styles as their original releases in 2001 and 2004. So that's more then 20 years more or less the same approach.

Sure there are some new styles and sounds and with the genos a touch screen was added and the registrations were added, but the basics are still the same. The same applies to the korg pax series. There isn't much difference between the korg pa1x and the korg pa4x. Korg did now start with a complete rewrite for the pa5x and it looks promising, but it's far from finished that will take years probably before all the new things are in there.

The music world has changed a lot over the past 20 years, the musical taste of people has drastically changed, the gear that can be used and the possibilities are changed a lot. The sound taste wall of sound, sidechain compression, the EDM influences and all those kind of tricks, it's all heavy used in the music in the past 20 years. And the upcoming generations are used to that sound.

For the current keyboard generation users this is not needed, they are happy with the current styles and sound. But you won't attract new younger users with it and to survive on the long term as a keyboard company you need that new generation users. I can also see it in my youtube analytics. Most people that are watching the keyboard videos are 55+.

So i'm curious what's yamaha going to come with. If the genos 2 is just a genos 1 with some new styles and a matrix pad than I doubt that, that approach will work.

[robinez]

There are people with other interests on these arrangers, - creating sounds, producing music - but I don't think it's a huge percentage. Most just want to play. Reading forums like this can be misleading because I believe the people who just want to play, post less, or don't even bother to join forums. So it can give the impression that a lot of owners are  into DAWs etc, when it is not true.

I agree,

I also don't think that a lot of DAW users are into keyboards, they are using a midi keyboard (no sound) connected to their VST instruments. It's a very different audience with different kind of needs.

[Danny1972]

. There isn't much difference between the korg pa1x and the korg pa4x.

Hi robinez,

Although I get the gist of your point in which you make some good ones, the one you made about the pa1x vs the pa4x is not quite accurate. I have a Pa1x, Pa2x, Pa4x and Pa5x and I can say there is so much difference between a Pa1x vs a Pa4x, especially if you're talking about the younger generation, the Pa4x has many exceptional EDM styles that absolutely couldn't be played even on a Pa3x let alone a Pa1x. On top of this, the last few bonusware packs that Korg released shows what the Korg can do to cater for this genre.

Also on a side note, didn't Yamaha attempt to do something specifically for the younger generation by creating the DJX and DJX2? I had the first one but I didn't like it as it didn't feel like a serious instrument but the intention was good. Maybe they could revisit something like that but actually make it sound realistic and include some of the modern features required for this type music.

[Danny1972]

Hello Danny,
  Yamaha Milton Keynes is a very large building on an estate. They don't sell direct to the public and to my knowledge never have. I don't know of any shop on the estate.

Thank you Eileen, yeah I don't think it was there I went but perhaps they had a Yamaha shop in Central Milton Keynes once but I can't remember much about it as it was so long ago around 1998 or 99. The last time I went in that shop was when they were showcasing the first Tyros but after that I think the shop must have moved or closed. 

[Amwilburn]

here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x

Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c

Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI

Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw


Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8

Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs

Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q

Thanks for posting these, Robin!
1) both sound great
2) the Yamaha ensemble choir sounds are superior to the Korg ones; however, nobody seems to show the Korg solo vocal (like the ones from Genos Superior pack). Those are virtually identical.
3) Korg wins in electronic dance music (EDM). It's hard to convey over youtube, but there's a beefy thickness to the bass and kick that really hit you in the chest. Almost enough to use Korg EDM as a defibrillator!

Mark

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi  :

Younger people have no much interest in
arrangers.
We all know why  : price is mostly a problem for them
and most styles' genres are not suitable for " their " music genre.
They prefer to play piano's, synths and/or midi keyboards  ... last but no least : the use of music software is very important for most of them.
What will be the answer of the arranger producers in the coming years ? Time will tell.
For younger musicians the present arranger is a music device made for older people.
Arranger producers are aware of this situation and it will not be easy to find a solution, IMHO.

JH

[usaraiya]

This is pure speculation, as I don't know anything.

I think the new Genos will incorporate AI vocals whenever it's released or whatever it will be called. Yamaha already owns the VOCALOID software; it's on version 6 currently, which can be used to produce vocals using words that can be written and the melody you want, including tempo and key. This standalone software works incredibly well, and if it is a part of the new Genos, that will be one of a kind and maybe a game changer (blows the socks off you!), as someone has mentioned regarding the new Genos numerous times!

Uday