Fill trigger times

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi all,

I'm rehearsing for a very tricky show at a local theater. Is it my imagination or are the fills between Variations somewhat sloppy? I find that if you don't hit that button right on the beat, part of the fill is often missed or it sounds a bit late. I don't see a setting for that in the Change Behavior area. The Tyros 5 never did this. The fills were perfect.

I've actually noticed this since I bought the Genos but never really paid too much attention to it, but it's critical to this upcoming show because many of the tunes are fast. Something is amiss.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee

This is a problem i found also on the Genos.You have to hit the fill button just before the bar fill that you want and if it is a fast tune it can be tricky and missing those fills are annoying.
It would be nice to have a free fill but that would trigger no matter what as we are humans.
If i can remember the old Technics KN2000 which i had ages ago triggererd on demand.
The sure way out is to pre record the drum tracks for live performance.

all the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

Okay, thanks John. Pre-recording works but when the singer misses his or her cue, pre-recording falls apart. Live playing is best for stage shows.

You've confirmed that the Genos has more problems than those who think it's a "wonder machine." The home players may be happy but us pro-level live players are running into issues that never happened with the Tyros series. Why did the Tyros NOT have these issues and the Genos so called, "wonder machine" does??!! Yamaha needs to start listening to this forum.

[Fred Smith]

I've found the Tyros and the Genos to be the same. Some fills are programmed to play differently depending on when they're triggered. This  applies to both keyboards.

I also found that it depends on the speed of the drive the style is on. On the Tyros, I had to move some styles to the used drive to get them to work properly.

Cheers,
Fred

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the info, Fred. As mentioned, I never perceived any odd fill timing on my T2 and T5. The Genos seems sporadic. I don't think the operating system of the Genos is as well designed as the Tyros. Over the past year, my musical activity has made me dive deeper into the innards of the Genos. The sounds are stellar but the mechanics of the more sophisticated stuff are 👎.

Edit I use the Genos primary drive for all my registrations. It shouldn't be a variable for me.

[musicman01]

Dear Lee,
Sorry for my response, but if you're a Live speller you shouldn't have a problem with beats in a measure.
As you know, the "Fill-ins" for each variation A-B-C-D are different, the mistakes that are usually made are that players, for example,
in a 4/4 time format, have the heavy beat shift on the 3rd beat instead of the 1st beat Result is that the "Fill-in" or Break is completely wrong.
Tip: Look at the "Start/Stop" button where "Orange" led indicates the 1st (heavy) beat followed by 3 "Blue" in a 4/4 time.
Just like in the screen at the top.
If the Fill-in (Var A-B-C-D) or Break button is pressed just before the 1st beat it will work perfectly.
This is not a flaw in Genos, and if you know it well, it is a very nice feature.
It also works perfectly on the next beats 2,3,4 with broken "Fills" but that takes a little practice.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Musicman

I agree that it takes time to perfect after continually counting in your head.
I think we all miss a fill now and then and it can be annoying.
It would be nice to have instant response fills as that would allow for millisecond human errors.


All the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

No offense taken, fellas. I'm certainly glad to admit pilot error 🤣.

My impression was that the fills' software code would quantized the attack time so that it's at the right spot. I was wrong. One issue is, if the left hand is playing a complex chord, pressing the correct fill button at the correct time may not happen. And recently, I have discovered how truly delicate the buttons are on the Genos. They are prone to breaking. That makes me fearful of hitting them too hard at the last moment, especially during a faster song.

I need to take better advantage of the chord hold feature and lay off the left chord, as to allow me time to get the fill correct. Another solution may be to map the fill to a left foot pedal. I always thought the fills were programmed to happen at the right time. It seems they are quantized to a quarter note duration inside the bar. That should be close enough. I may never have noticed this in the T5 because the buttons were a little smoother and I was five years younger 🙄.

Thanks for clarifying this.

[EileenL]

I assign my drum fills to a pedal and it works well for me.

[Amwilburn]

Just as a heads up, they didn't change the fill behaviour from the Tyros to the Genos. It's always been where if you don't hit it exactly at beat 1, it will sound different because the beginning of the fill gets skipped.
However, some styles take this into account, and the first 2 beats of the fill actually replicate the same as their main pattern counterpart (look at 80sPowerRock fill in C) so perhaps that's what you were remembering; some styles are much more lenient about when you press the fill/break. Some breaks, with everything on the 1st beat, then 3 empty beats? Very unforgiving!

They also didn't change the durability of the buttons; I've had several Tyros customers who've had to get their buttons replaced (under warranty, fortunately). Another forum member hit the nail on the head: pressing on the top half of the buttons tends to break them, but the button 1/3 doesn't, since that's where the actual give is (hinge is on top). But they sure changed the quality of the finish: Yes, the Tyros could lose silver paint around commonly touched areas, but you could always re-paint if you had an airbrush. The Genos, being just a molded plastic casing; once it becomes glossy from wear, it's nigh impossible to fix (short of spraying the entire chassis)

Mark

[musicman01]

Dear Lee and John,

My response was certainly not meant to be offensive.
Because I live in Belgium and speak Dutch, my English is certainly not perfect!
My explanation comes from experience with the Yamaha keyboards.
It's easy for me to speak because I was originally a drummer for over 50 years and have no problem at all with bars and bar changes.
That is why it strikes me a lot with keyboard players that the heavy beat is regularly exchanged for the light beat in a measure.
With a start of a Fill-in on the 3rd beat, the Fill continues until 2 beats of the next measure and that is immediately noticeable!
What I recommend is to experiment with Fill-ins and Breaks, and you will see that after a period of practice you can do very nice things.

@ Mark: As for the exterior finish of Genos and also Tyros keyboards I totally agree, I find it downright outrageous that yamaha continues to make instruments completely in plastic for prices in the case of Genos for more than 4k.

[Lee Batchelor]

Once again, no offence taken. Your explanations are all excellent and is the reason for this forum. I'm thoroughly convinced that the issue is my sloppy trigger timing. There's nothing wrong with the Tyros or Genos. Frankly, I don't know how Yamaha could possibly quantize out a late trigger time. I'm going to try Eileen' suggestion of the foot pedal.

As for the finish, my Tyros only had slight wear around the volume knob. Everything else was very cleanable and stayed perfect. Not so with the Genos. You even look at this thing the wrong way and it mars the surface. It's a tough call. If Yamaha were to go to a metal case with a far better painted surface, the weight would be ridiculous. I say they should go back to the Tyros finish for the new Genos.

Mark, I still feel the Tyros buttons were more robust than their Genos counterparts. I don't doubt your word because you're talking from experience. It doesn't get any better than that 😀. I'm going to seek out the parts and do the repair myself. Yamaha wants to do the repair because they think it's possible the underlying circuit board may be damaged. While that's possible, I doubt the damage is that extensive because the Sync/Start function still works. It's just a bit sloppy from the loose button.

Are there any Canadians here who live in the Toronto area and have ordered parts before? If so, from whom did you get the parts? I doubt Yamaha will sell to me directly because they want their labor fees.

[Amwilburn]

Yes, I completely forgot to mention, I also use the foot trigger to do drum fills. Keeps 2 hands free, and timing is easier.

Incidentally, we also had 11 (yes double digit) T2 screens replaced, 2 T5 screens replaced, (no T3 or T4, oddly) and so far no Genos screens. We had 2 T5's that had buttons that broke, and 1 T2, but none of the other models. But also had a couple of CVP buttons also snap the same way (107, 208, nothing in the last decade+). PSR's we had a few PSR3000 screens replaced, a few PSROR700 screens replaced, several dozen (!) PSRs900 screens replaced. *all* under warranty though! Except 1 T5 screen which was past the 2 years, and Yamaha Canada split the cost of the parts & labour with him.

Lee, check your messages

Mark

[Lee Batchelor]

Good to know, Mark. Wow, I didn't know Yamaha had so many issues with their hardware. Glad they shone through with the warranty. Sadly, I'm way past their consideration, despite the huge money I've packed into their coffers the past years.

I checked my messages and there's nothing there.

[Amwilburn]

heh! Yamaha's the brand we had the *least* proportion of warranty issues :p I won't name names, but a couple of brands, there were periods of high % defective rates :p

The numbers I gave were over the last 2 decades. 2 other brands, in *1* year each (this happened in 2 different years), we had about a 70% failure rate of specific speaker models :p Both brands have since cleaned up their acts.

[Lee Batchelor]

Not surprising, Mark. Some companies go through a phase where they constantly drop the ball.

What about my messages. There's still nothing there. Were you going to send me something? Thanks.

[Amwilburn]

Odd, I've sent it twice!

try sending me one, maybe then I can reply?

[Lee Batchelor]

I did receive your note at 4:46 p.m. and replied at 5:18 p.m. Toronto time. Thanks .

[Amwilburn]

LOL I thought I clicked the personal message box, but I must've clicked Email instead, oops!

[Lee Batchelor]

No worries, Mark 👍. I just received another note from you. I'll reply shortly. Thanks.