Genos 2 Design Wishes

[Mike2]

One of my recent post about the Genos 2 and the new inside technology wishes, had many replies. Since it's fairly slow on this forum, I thought maybe getting the Genos 2 design options and feedback would be great.  Personally I don't have anything specific, but adding a little bit of LIFE to the Keyboards face top, colors, would grains maybe. Gray trim, instead of all black. I had the technics kn-7000 years ago, and enjoyed the cover swinging close for carrying. The problem with that is the reaching for styles, effects and so forth while playing was a little out of reach.  Still I liked the way it kept the keyboard clean. One other thing would be having the face of the keyboard tilted up a little, this would help in reading the screen.  So, with my two cents worth, I will be looking forward to any feedback and ideas, that everyone would think to make the nest keyboard a little better, Technics, NO PRICE INCREASE, PLEASE!!

[Mike2]

Well I'm glad this has taken off like a Rocket...Keep it going.. 

[Misu]

Hi,

The new top competitor PA5x is almost ready to be launched on the market, so for Genos fans, the new model may appear faster than expected.
It will be able to keep the huge price because the PA 5x could start at $ 4500-5000.
So good news!

Mihai!

[ton37]

Oh Oh, speaking of Technics SX-KN7000...  that was the last keyboard Panasonic/Matsisusha (what ever  ) made. There was nothing left to improve on and it was far too small/no part of the company's profit. Maybe Yamaha is heading that way too ? 

[EileenL]

So far all I can see is Korg and Technics being mentioned. What has this to do with the members question.
  I am happy with the colour of Genos but would not object to a change as long as it was tasteful. Would like to see a touch bar added that contained different arpeggios and  was assignable to our favourite voices. 

[ton37]

OK  , in terms of appearance it is of course quite nice if it looks modern and sleek (comes to taste: such a difficult definition..)  In the current SX I really don't understand why there are black numbers on black keys?? So it goes without saying that the legibility of the buttons and/or function keys is essential. I think it is very important that the ergonomic design has been carefully considered.  Tmo. the folding screen of the KN7000 had that ergonomic aspect, thanks to its design, in any case ;-)
E.g. important and/or frequently used buttons are slightly larger in size than other buttons and close to the keys. In poor light, LED figures, which are dimmable, could help?

[mixermixer]

I'm thinking, did anyone miss having physical buttons for the voices and styles categories or is it just me? Was Yamaha trying to go the "minimalist" look?

Also I miss the tilting screen, The korg PA series shows it can be done with touchscreen, wonder why Yamaha abandoned that?

[DerekA]

I don't miss those physical buttons at all. On T5, I couldn't read them very clearly anyway so I find it much easier on the touch screen.

Having said that, losing the tilting touch screen was, for me, the biggest design mistake on Genos. It is very difficult to see the screen clearly when there is overhead light without having to hold a hand over it. I don't know if there could have been some kind of anti-reflective coating on it, or if that would have stopped the touch detection working.

So that's my #1 wish - make the screen easier to see in bright overhead light.

[Mike2]

I have been examining the tyros 5, color being the main thing, and applying it to the Genos 2 design. I think it would be a great improvement, no extra cost, and I like the lit up buttons for control of banks and sound.  This all black, Genos, well if you like it, great. But if not, I think many would agree. I sit with this awesome keyboard the Genos 1, and look down at my keys, and control buttons..it looks boring, tired.  Lets debate it.  Anyone on my side?

[Amwilburn]

I dislike matte black. Literally the only reason why I didn't upgrade to the s975 from my s970.

I wish the Genos used the same brushed metallic black finish as the centre panel of the sx900 (or gunmetal metallic grey, which is why I hung onto my s970)

Plus, if they used the brushed metal finish across the entire top, you wouldn't see the 'glossing' around frequently touched parts of the case, such as is common near the joystick (matte black is simply a rough texture, once it smooths from wear out it becomes glossy/semi gloss)

And yes, I miss the tilting screen, although that added weight, and also made it insanely tricky to disassemble your keyboard.

Mark

[Lee Batchelor]

1) The tilting screen is a MUST!

2) A larger screen with the capacity to load PDF documents would really be a good way for Yamaha to show they decided to come into the 21st century like everyone else!

3) As for the black case, it's like owning a black car. It looks great as long as you don't drive it. Same with the Genos. Its case looks great but as soon as you start using it, it shows wear. For the first time in 30 years of owning Yamaha gear, its the only thing I can call "pathetic." That's a pretty good track record for Yamaha but they dropped the ball on one of the most important aspects that's going to cost us all dearly on trade-in. None of my PSR or Tyros models look "used" on trading them, save for a little wear on the keys from fingernails. These keyboards in my past begged the question from my dealer, "Didn't you ever play this keyboard?" Sadly, when I trade the Genos for whatever, the dealer is going to say, "Oh my God, what did you do to this lovely instrument?" My answer will be, "The exact same thing I did with all my previous keyboards except this one had two and half years of holidays thanks to Covid. You should be asking Yamaha this question, not me!"

4) Improved piano, e.piano, and organ voices are a must. They got the other instruments perfect - even better than some of the same voices on the Montage series. For so many, the piano is a primary voice. It's much better than the Tyros but for the cost of a Genos, it should be on par with their best stage pianos. Nord did it. Why not Yamaha? In some ways, they still treat their arrangers as toys .

[Ingar]

Tilting screen is an improvement, and please no printet buttons, the ink wears off. I just  ordered a new set of printed buttons sync/stop, sync/start and start/stop. The skin is like fine sandpapir. Strange that they did not think about it.

[Lee Batchelor]

Tilting screen is an improvement, and please no printet buttons, the ink wears off. I just  ordered a new set of printed buttons sync/stop, sync/start and start/stop. The skin is like fine sandpapir. Strange that they did not think about it.

They thought about it, Ingar. It's cheaper to put printed buttons on the Genos then the covered buttons on the Tyros series. They call that "profit."

[pjd]

Hi Lee --

2) A larger screen with the capacity to load PDF documents would really be a good way for Yamaha to show they decided to come into the 21st century like everyone else!

Well, I don't think they can really give me a screen big enough to read the music I must play: 2 to 3 staves per system and at least 4 systems per page. Integration with a tablet-based score reader would be very useful. Plus, Yamaha have been doing research on playing along with scores, etc., but none of it seems to reach product stage. Inability to capitalize on the research is a management issue.

4) Improved piano, e.piano, and organ voices are a must. They got the other instruments perfect - even better than some of the same voices on the Montage series. For so many, the piano is a primary voice.

In terms of value out-of-the-box, I agree. Genos piano, EP and drawbar organ should be right up there with the best.

With respect to the current Genos, one can add expansion packs. On a more technical note, the multi-layer Montage CFX could be delivered now as an expansion pack. Montage gets around the 8 element per part (voice) barrier by allowing multiple parts per performance (aggregate voice). The same trick is feasible on Genos, assigning some layers on RIGHT1, RIGHT2 and RIGHT3, thereby implementing up to 24 layers (elements). [This trick is so obvious, they shouldn't need my help. :-) ]

All the best -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

As usual, great thoughts PJD. Thanks!

I can see where the move to a bigger screen may be low on Yamaha's priority list because there are so many other ways to handle scores etc... iPad, laptop, Android.

[Mike2]

I think a larger screen would be ok, but like Lee said, ipads, and all other screens available, I don't think Yamaha will go there. As far as sound voice quality, like piano and other voices, I would expect Yamaha to make these mentioned more realistic, along with styles as well. But my main concern would be the appearance. With today's technology, making artificial wood grains, with plastic, there is no cost besides the technology for it's endurance and appearance.  Keeping the same layout as the current Genos, but add a little attraction and welcome, besides black. Once again the Tyros 5 look applied to the Genos, would be an approvement. when you sit to play, it takes a very long time for the Genos to turn on. Maybe that is because of the depressing look that the Genos gives without any lit up tabs, but than again, not that much improvement even when lit up.  We shall all see.

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed about the boot time, Mike. I don't have an enormous amount of extra data in my Genos and it takes way too long to boot. I believe it's on the order of 30 seconds. For today's tech, that's unacceptable. I wonder why?

[Mike2]

Well, I don't mind waiting for the big surprise, and what I mean is, when sitting down to play, after turning the Genos on, it gives you allot of time to see the depressing appearance. This is only my view, but if this is what someone likes, just request the same for Genos 2 or whatever they call it. I love the technology of music that the Yamaha Genos offers, but being retired, I will require for me to upgrade, to another Genos 2 or whatever, to have a better look overall.  I think many feel the same.

[pjd]

Agreed about the boot time, Mike. I don't have an enormous amount of extra data in my Genos and it takes way too long to boot. I believe it's on the order of 30 seconds. For today's tech, that's unacceptable. I wonder why?

Hi Lee --

Not too surprised. Genos is designed to run cool without heavy fans and heat sinks. The Genos host CPU is a single core 1 GHz ARM processor. Raspberry Pi 4, in comparison, has a 1.5 GHz 4-core processor. Both run Linux. It takes a while for the RPi4 to boot, too.

The Genos file system resides on an eMMC solid state memory -- not the fastest interface. The RPi4 uses a faster microSD interface. On either device, Linux needs to boot, do file system checks, etc.

Hope this info helps -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, PJ.

I've come up with a solution that I'd like to share. I turn on my Genos, do my grocery shopping, grab a quick shower and a beverage, and then relax to some Genos music. It's all good.

At shows, I turn on the Genos, leave out those other steps, and just mingle with the guests until they're sick of me !

[Toril S]

Then your shower is too short 

[Lee Batchelor]

Then your shower is too short 

Good one, Toril !!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

Dj Lee Genius

[Lee Batchelor]

It's a real toss-up as to whether the Genos boots faster than our B&W televisions of the 50s and 60s . The Genos sound is better but a lot of it is still in B&W.

[sunny]

Sub outputs problem :
In Line out settings, when some parts are sent to Sub Outputs 1 to 4 , The system effects Reverb, and Chorus are Chorus are missing through Sub outputs. Yamaha should rethink, and allow System effects Reverb and Chorus to work for sub outputs.


Sunny

[hella737]

What other new makes are coming on the market is of little interest since I have a Genos. The Genos will let me play and have fun for many, many years to come.

But, there is one one really irritating issue with the Genos.
The virtual keyboard is really, really, really, from the stone age! Hardly any important functionality is missing!

That Yamaha cant make a selectable option for international keyboard layout and letters is beyond strange for a wonderful high cost keyboard.

I hope a future update will address this serious issue!

[nonchai]

Ok Here goes -  bear in mind my Wishlist here is all to do with the idea of GENOS as a COMPOSING or PRODUCTION tool when used in a STUDIO. Most of this list wouldn't be important for live performance.

1 ) built in USB audio interface that AT THE VERY LEAST - supports outputting all the STYLE tracks plus LH and RH parts onto separate stereo feeds over USB - into a DAW.  THIS WOULD ALLOW GENOS2 to be used as a SOUND MODULE when using a DAW - very important when needing to have maximum control over each track - whether styles or song or more.
   This would mean outputting at the very least 16 mono channels. Ideally we need to be able to output 32 or 16 STEREO Chanels digitally in order to be able to record all the parts digitally into a DAW for mix down.

2 ) Along with the built in sound set - Make Steinberg sell a seperate HALION sound module library - that his compatible with Genos voices but goes further in having huge sample set equivalents onboard. So the Genos2 voice set would be the "LITE" version - and one would be able to - via HALION - load in a "LITE", XL or XXL library version - so whether needing the most authentic  multisample pianos or orchestral sounds competitive with modern DAW sample libraries - one would be able to get the best of both worlds. HALION would have to be improved in order to support proper MIDI bank switching vis CC - ie not just PC but also LSB and MSB CC messages.

Imagine a film composer that can start with Genos2 as a scratchpad - using styles for orchesras but then use much bigger (GB vs MB size )  versions of the same sounds to deliver the final product.

This would also stimulate a market for Genos expansions - since knowing that one can begin with a ROMpler voice set - but then switch to a full streaming sampler equivalent when transferring work to a DAW - would be a Hughe workflow and productivity booster.

3) Support Ableton Link

4 ) add proper Piano-roll based MIDI editing into the GENOS2.

5 ) Support both clip-launch modes ( as in Ableton Session/KORG Gadget, Bitwig, GarageBand and Logic ) as well as linear(aka tape )  MIDI modes

6 ) Allow external MIDI control surfaces to be used to control aspects such as channel faders, transport, buttons etc..

7 ) Allow ANY  physical button  on the Genos 2 to be controlled via MIDI. 

8 )  Support MIDI 2.0

9 ) Overhaul all the PC tools for installing expansions etc and managing the Genos to be far more user friendly - for upgrading firmware as well as extra content.   The model here in my view - is Line6 and the HELIX range which come with superb editor apps.

10 )  Treat the future Genos and top end PSR lines as PLATFORM - in exactly the same way Line6 have done with their HELIX line of products - where the firmware has been continually updated and improved to beyond version 3.  This has fostered an extremely high level of user loyalty for the HELIX line. 

11)  Add the ability to EDIT chord looper blocks & optionally do so in a BIAB type of view - ie LEAD SHEET - is'nt this obvious?  And from there one provide export tools to export CHORD LOOPER data in MUSICXML and other formats suitable for importing into DAWS and arrangers like BIAB. Such a high end expensive tool as GENOS2 - that is supposed to be for composition and songwriting etc-  cannot be an "island" or "walled garden" but instead must be able to have any content created on it - transferred to typical production tools on computer - ie a DAW...

12)  Make transfer of files simple - by allowing the GENOS2 stoage USER storage area to be exposed as a USB DRIVE VIA USB  when connected to a PC or MAC.  We should not haver to go through the drudgery of unplugging and replugging USB SSD sticks all the time just to get work done.  It might be ok for live performance now and then - but not when using this arranger as a composition or songwriting tool.

13)   Why not port a version of CUBASIS onto the Genos2?   and do this for future MONTAGE series too - we have touch screens now - and with all the physical buttons on arrangers and workstations - such a touch based sequencer could be even more productive than when using a tablet.  Sure - Cubasis would need to be adapted , maybe cut down in features - but given its been ported to android and even Chrome now - surely to have some version of Cubasis on Yamaha hardware is timely.

14 ) As well as supporting editing of chord progressions in the CHORD LOOPER - Add the ability to play more than one of the 8 blocks in sequence - and being able to set the number of times each block repeats before playback moves onto the next block.   By such means we start to REALLY have some useful tools here for honing a chord progression. 

15 ) Add ability to import chord progressions into the CHORD LOOPER - from popular PC/MAC based apps  like BandInABox or iReal Pro.  Maybe via MusicXML..

16 ) Support using external sound sources in live performance - such as OSX MAINSTAGE - and provide a seamless way to switch between external voices  similar to what is found in modern workstations. So for example in FANTOM and MONTAGE - we can set up the keyboard via touch screen so that rather than use an internal sound source , an external sound source is used - and its voices selected by sending PC,MSB and LSB info over MIDi our USB. It should be seamless.   Being able to use such external sound sources should be seamless -

17 ) I don't see any reason why there couldn't be some kind of parity between the sound engine in future top of the line YAMAHA workstations and the top of the line YAMAHA arranger workstations.   Let the only difference be the kinds of buttons on the front panel plus maybe a difference in the inputs and outputs on the back.  For example having arranger features in a future MONTAGE is a logical move when one already has all manner of patterns and arpeggiators in such workstations - sure on a MONTAGE one would not have all the dedicated buttons that arrangers come with - but at least one could go some way with a touch screen - and YAMAHA could also sell an add on control surface that added such arranger hardware control when needed.
Let the user decide whether the form factor most suitable is an workstation/stage keyboard type of beast  ( more stage rock/pop band performance oriented ) or an arranger - but provide all the sonic sound options to both kinds of users

This is very important when wanting to use an arranger as the "heart" of a composition suite.  One shouldn't have to go and buy both keyboards if ergonomically one would do...

18 ) Allow the GENOS 2 to be expanded with extra ( YAMAHA MADE or 3rd PTY ) control devices - for example to provide dedicated buttons for playing chords - such as used to be found on the old Yamaha QY 700 Sequencer/Arranger.   This would be extremely useful for those who aren't actual keyboard players  or aren't proficient with harmony - as it would allow them an easy way to experiment.   There are third party MIDI controllers that do this very well for example as made by ISLA INSTRUMENTS.

19 ) Make creating STYLES a seamless and easy process to do INSIDE GENOS. This would also be much easier and useful if one had Ableton style SESSION mode Clip-launching - as a "SCENE" could be viewed as a section.  And being able to create clips and scenes Ala Ableton and *then* optionally turn them into a style - would thus not only be useful in and of itself - but also as a really creative way of coming up with ones own styles.  And the beauty of having this in an arranger is that a *static* pattern or riff now becomes re-useable in all manner of ways by means of being able to be harmonically transformed.  This is something I wish one could do in Ableton but alas one cannot.  Imagine coming up with a bass riff, a drum part, a chord part and say a synth line -but then as well as playing it "as is" - be able to use the same content - but with different cord progressions - so an originally major riff becomes minor etc etc.... which is what all arrangers do..  but now the GENOS is being used not just to consume pre-digested content - but ORIGINAL ideas

20 ) I got to 20 YAY!  - SO HALION - YAMAHA's own sampler via Steinberg - its high time this plugin supported PC and (LSB+MSB) bank change MIDI messages.  That way we could at least set up our own voice sets - when moving from arranger to DAW.  The alternative to this is currently just to use one of the SoundFont plugins - but none support both MSB AND LSB messages.  What would be far better would be for HALION in future to allow us to set up large maps ( PC+LSB_MSB ) that reference existing instruments.  With the option maybe if being able to pre-load them into memory up front - given the huge amounts of RAM modern computers carry.   In addition to this - why not have the next version of HALION support hosting of plugins internally too?  This - combined with ability to set up MIDI voice patch change maps - would allow maximum flexibility in using styles - once one is moving to or connected to a computer.   

[Lee Batchelor]

These are all great ideas but they lean toward making the Genos into a pure studio production tool. With all those extras, the living room players would be paying thousands of dollars for stuff they never use. What you're describing is a Montage that can be played like a Genos. Great thoughts though!

[Dnj]

These are all great ideas but they lean toward making the Genos into a pure studio production tool. With all those extras, the living room players would be paying thousands of dollars for stuff they never use. What you're describing is a Montage that can be played like a Genos. Great thoughts though!

This can easily be done on Montage as shown here ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC-2CPgNOPY&t=216s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8ASrJITXCA

[soundphase]

I would like this feature which seems implemented on korg. There is a mode when chords of styles change only when you play notes with low velocities under a threshold (in the correct style zone of the keyboard). That allows to play complex counterpoints with the same hand (generally left one) by using higher velocities, without the IA enforces a chord change. Not easy to play but very very powerful.