Is YEM an archaic way of doing things ?

Oldden · December 16, 2021, 03:52:47 AM

I have alway thought that loading music into my Genos with YEM is a very roundabout way of doing things. Shame we could not just log strait into the keyboard and modify, erase or renew anything on the fly. The option to send things to a usb stick would be there as an option if required. Imagine having to reinstall Windows or Apple every time we want to change anything.
Oldden

DerekA · December 16, 2021, 04:31:00 AM

Yes, it is!!

It might be more tolerable if it wasn't so s-l-o-w.

Toril S · December 16, 2021, 06:39:51 AM

I fully agree with you! YEM is ready for the dusty corner of a museum!

maartenb · December 16, 2021, 07:03:08 AM

If I recall correctly YEM was created because the Flash memory of the Tyros 4 and 5 could not be incrementally written, but only in one go. This means that you first organize all your packs and voices in YEM, and then YEM writes everything in one go to the flash memory.

Whether this technical limitation is still present on the Genos I don't know, but I expect not.

The user interface of YEM is certainly not the easiest, but one gets used to it after a couple of times.

My suspicion is that the number of people, or the number of hours available for working on YEM, is very limited. Thus new functionality probably is given priority over improving the user interface.

It is what it is.

Maarten

Lee Batchelor · December 16, 2021, 07:47:29 AM

I've haven't used the YEM that much but it certainly is archaic in its functionality. There was a similar system with the Nord 5D except, you were able to connect the Nord to your PC or Mac and it showed up as a device and could be treated as such. It too had a special software package for manipulating files but it was instant and very straight forward, just like any file manipulation on a computer. You didn't need to attend circus school to use it

.

Yamaha has been very good to offer up all kinds of free packages, which is a very good thing. However, when the method of delivery to the Genos is tricky and slow, it's hardly worth it, in my opinion. I think Maarten is right. The limitations of previous keyboards no longer exist in the Genos and the YEM has been rigged to work rather than being scrapped. Hopefully Yamaha will ditch this dinosaur and provide a better system for loading packs.

Using YEM is like a large city owning a $5 million fire engine with a huge ladder system, multiple pumps, etc...and when it arrives at a big structure fire, a bunch of fire fighters get out and form a bucket brigade to deal with the fire

!

EileenL · December 16, 2021, 10:35:56 AM

I have done a one off load from YEM to keyboard. I took a little time deciding what I wanted to use in the packs and removed the ticks from the boxes of the ones I did not need. I had a few UVN files that I created a pack with. I used around Two and a quarter Gb of space leaving me space to add to with any new content I should get using quick load. I don't find it difficult to do and I always keep a copy of my install files.

ckobu · December 16, 2021, 11:42:57 AM

Quote from: Oldden on December 16, 2021, 03:52:47 AM
I have alway thought that loading music into my Genos with YEM is a very roundabout way of doing things. Shame we could not just log strait into the keyboard and modify, erase or renew anything on the fly. The option to send things to a usb stick would be there as an option if required. Imagine having to reinstall Windows or Apple every time we want to change anything.
Oldden

You are wrong. Watch the video and you will see that the Voice can be insert individually.
In addition, the process is much faster than when I inserted the sound from USB to Tyros 4.

https://youtu.be/yHxPPE5tQGw

Oldden · December 16, 2021, 02:49:13 PM

Thanks for the video link, yes you can do things. The point I was trying to make was load or remove an mp3 into windows or a Kontakt instrument or do so many other things with no problem. Yamaha seem to do things the hard way, maybe one day, but probably not. Even Cubase is not as friendly as it could be.

Lee Batchelor · December 16, 2021, 02:56:33 PM

Agreed, Oldden. Our computer schemata is routed in either a Windows or Mac platform. Yamaha approximates those two but wanders too far away from convention, which often creates confusion. Their Save, Move, and Copy functions on the Genos are convoluted and unnecessarily complex.

I wish they'd stay with what we know about everyday devices...although I must say after using a PC throughout the years, when asked to use an iPad, after a minute or two I'm ready to eat razor blades

!

ckobu · December 16, 2021, 03:16:13 PM

The keyboards are primarily intended for playing, and they perform this task superbly. Of course, this is true for those people who know how to play.
Computers have a different purpose and no comparison can be made with the functions we have on the keyboard.

Could YEM be better? Certainly it could, Yamaha needs to be constantly pressured to install what users want.
But I have seen many times that the problem is not in YEM but in the ignorance of the people who use it. And Yamaha can't help that much.

Lee Batchelor · December 16, 2021, 03:53:34 PM

Quote from: ckobu on December 16, 2021, 03:16:13 PM
The keyboards are primarily intended for playing, and they perform this task superbly. Of course, this is true for those people who know how to play.
Computers have a different purpose and no comparison can be made with the functions we have on the keyboard.

That's 1980s thinking. Those older PSRs were "keyboards first with a tiny bit of computing power." The Genos is a computer driven keyboard - completely different. Computer architecture and methodology is highly integral to using the Genos, therefore the OS architecture should be something most people are familiar with. Take away all that computing functionality of the Genos and all you have left is a PSR with far better sounds.

I agree with the previous comment about how Yamaha does everything the hard way and in a round-about fashion. I question whether they need to build the OS that way for the Genos to work. Other companies have sophisticated keyboards with far simpler OS.

Yes, the YEM needs work!

pjd · December 17, 2021, 02:39:40 PM

Quote from: maartenb on December 16, 2021, 07:03:08 AM
If I recall correctly YEM was created because the Flash memory of the Tyros 4 and 5 could not be incrementally written, but only in one go. This means that you first organize all your packs and voices in YEM, and then YEM writes everything in one go to the flash memory.

Whether this technical limitation is still present on the Genos I don't know, but I expect not.
Maarten

Thanks for mentioning this Maarten.

This may sound all nerd-ish, but the waveform memory (NAND flash) has its own peculiarities.

First, NAND flash can be read much, much faster than it can be written. This is why updates/changes to waveform memory are slow. Unless someone invents a fast-to-write NAND flash and Yamaha uses it, writing waveform memory will be a slow process.

Second, NAND flash prefers to be read and written sequentially -- it does not like accesses that skip around. This is another reason why it's written in one go -- to lay everything down sequentially for speedy access later.

Yeah, I know, someone will say "But, SSDs ..." Solid State Drives have internal RAM memory to buffer incoming and outgoing data. Overrun the RAM buffer and SSD speed degrades to NAND flash speed.

That's a lot of tech info to absorb. Yamaha is trying to do the best with NAND flash technology.

Hope this helps understanding -- pj

Oldden · December 17, 2021, 03:34:56 PM

Maybe , if and when Genos 2 ever surface's it will come with a SSD a more windows or apple like operating system, but probably not. But the Genos we have today is a great machine, best I've ever owned in the last 40 years. If it never changes, I accept that it has its way of doing things, like some cars I've bought in the past and love it.

pjd · December 20, 2021, 02:07:10 PM

Quote from: Oldden on December 17, 2021, 03:34:56 PM
Maybe , if and when Genos 2 ever surface's it will come with a SSD a more windows or apple like operating system, but probably not.

Hi Oldden --

Actually, Genos (and the current SX) are based on a "real" operating system -- Linux.

What some folks call "operating system" is really the user interface. The Yamaha engineers re-created (emulated) a classic Yamaha arranger on a modern operating system (Linux) and a commodity host processor (ARM). There probably is a way to get direct access to a Linux shell via some sort of test mode. I'd rather play the thing and will leave that exploration to someone else.

All the best -- pj

Rich Z · December 20, 2021, 03:11:30 PM

Quote from: pjd on December 17, 2021, 02:39:40 PM
Thanks for mentioning this Maarten.

This may sound all nerd-ish, but the waveform memory (NAND flash) has its own peculiarities.

First, NAND flash can be read much, much faster than it can be written. This is why updates/changes to waveform memory are slow. Unless someone invents a fast-to-write NAND flash and Yamaha uses it, writing waveform memory will be a slow process.

Second, NAND flash prefers to be read and written sequentially -- it does not like accesses that skip around. This is another reason why it's written in one go -- to lay everything down sequentially for speedy access later.

Yeah, I know, someone will say "But, SSDs ..." Solid State Drives have internal RAM memory to buffer incoming and outgoing data. Overrun the RAM buffer and SSD speed degrades to NAND flash speed.

That's a lot of tech info to absorb. Yamaha is trying to do the best with NAND flash technology.

Hope this helps understanding -- pj

I suppose it is a cost concern, but perhaps going to a M.2 NVMe SSD based motherboard in the Genos might be a good idea? Heck, I know I would NEVER buy another PC or laptop that doesn't have this available. It speeds up the system tremendously.

Bit off topic, but a long while back I was looking at the Ketron Audya keyboard. Sounded nice, but when I saw that it used a 3.5" floppy drive, and this was well past when the rest of the world moved on to better external devices on a PC, well, that pretty much ended my desire for that keyboard. Yeah, it was a while ago! But it also soured my idea of buying any Ketron product when I saw how much they lagged behind in the rest of the world in their computer technology department for their devices. Computer based technology DOES matter for these creatures. And technology does get stale and affect the PERCEPTION of the technology of a device as a whole.

Someone stated that the Genos is a computer driven keyboard. Might be kind of splitting hairs, but I think it is the reverse. The Genos is a keyboard driven computer. The input interface is comprised of the keyboard, buttons, slides, and touch sensitive screen. The output is everything that the computer crunches out to the world via audio and digital signals (audio, MIDI, etc.) and the screen display. You provide the input data, and the computer generates what you tell it you want it to do and presents the results to you. Styles are nothing more, really, than programs that the computer runs upon demand.

Anyway, just idle conversation on a rainy day, IMHO...

pjd · December 20, 2021, 05:11:20 PM

Quote from: Rich Z on December 20, 2021, 03:11:30 PM
Someone stated that the Genos is a computer driven keyboard. Might be kind of splitting hairs, but I think it is the reverse. The Genos is a keyboard driven computer. The input interface is comprised of the keyboard, buttons, slides, and touch sensitive screen.

Hi Rich --

I agree with your point of view. I would classify an arrange keyboard as a real-time embedded system with an independent, special purpose co-processor for tone generation.

Entities like SATA- or M.2 solid state drives are suitable for personal computers with motherboards and such.

Genos (and the SX arrangers) have more in common with tablet hardware especially where cost, power consumption and heat dissipation are concerned. There are two kinds of bulk storage in Genos: eMMC solid state device memory for OS-related and USER storage, and NAND flash memory for the tone generator.

The eMMC storage is fast enough for what the Genos ARM host processor does. The ARM processor has two eMMC bus interfaces built in. So, a SATA- or M.2 solid state drive would just add cost and raise power consumption and dissipation.

The tone generator is a patented design that subsumes much of the functionality of a solid state drive. Both TG and SSD, use NAND flash and both employ RAM to cache most recently used data (samples). Samples go straight into the tone generator from NAND flash and they never go anywhere near the ARM host. (Writing updates to NAND flash is a different story...)

So, in Yamaha's architecture, a solid state drive is either redundant (tone generation) or higher cost.

BTW, I spelled out "solid state drive" and "solid state device" because the acronym SSD is used in both cases. (Argh.)

All the best -- pj

More about the patent, etc. here:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-main-cpu/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-tone-generation/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/swp70-tone-generator/

Oldden · December 21, 2021, 04:12:21 AM

Got this idea for a keyboard which hasn't got a computer as part of it. It would have little hammers which flirt back and forward when the keys are pressed, and they would hit some strings to make the sound . Think it might catch on.

DerekA · December 21, 2021, 04:47:24 AM

Quote from: Oldden on December 21, 2021, 04:12:21 AM
Got this idea for a keyboard which hasn't got a computer as part of it. It would have little hammers which flirt back and forward when the keys are pressed, and they would hit some strings to make the sound . Think it might catch on.

It would be even better if you could somehow control the volume depending on how hard you hit the keys. Then you could make it sound both soft and loud. Maybe we're just dreaming though.

EileenL · December 21, 2021, 07:43:14 AM

Also nice if you could control Sustain by pressing a pedal while you play.

ckobu · December 21, 2021, 09:44:56 AM

Quote from: Oldden on December 21, 2021, 04:12:21 AM
Got this idea for a keyboard which hasn't got a computer as part of it. It would have little hammers which flirt back and forward when the keys are pressed, and they would hit some strings to make the sound . Think it might catch on.

Did you mean this?

https://youtu.be/a1R8Rx2db9c

Oldden · December 21, 2021, 09:59:05 AM

I think a good name for it would be a Segno. It's an anagram for a keyboard we all know about, plus it's a musical term and I think it's a village in Italy.
Merry Christmas to all.
Oldden.

Sokratis1974 · December 21, 2021, 11:41:57 PM

Quote from: Rich Z on December 20, 2021, 03:11:30 PM
I suppose it is a cost concern, but perhaps going to a M.2 NVMe SSD based motherboard in the Genos might be a good idea? Heck, I know I would NEVER buy another PC or laptop that doesn't have this available. It speeds up the system tremendously.

Bit off topic, but a long while back I was looking at the Ketron Audya keyboard. Sounded nice, but when I saw that it used a 3.5" floppy drive, and this was well past when the rest of the world moved on to better external devices on a PC, well, that pretty much ended my desire for that keyboard. Yeah, it was a while ago! But it also soured my idea of buying any Ketron product when I saw how much they lagged behind in the rest of the world in their computer technology department for their devices. Computer based technology DOES matter for these creatures. And technology does get stale and affect the PERCEPTION of the technology of a device as a whole.

Someone stated that the Genos is a computer driven keyboard. Might be kind of splitting hairs, but I think it is the reverse. The Genos is a keyboard driven computer. The input interface is comprised of the keyboard, buttons, slides, and touch sensitive screen. The output is everything that the computer crunches out to the world via audio and digital signals (audio, MIDI, etc.) and the screen display. You provide the input data, and the computer generates what you tell it you want it to do and presents the results to you. Styles are nothing more, really, than programs that the computer runs upon demand.

Anyway, just idle conversation on a rainy day, IMHO...

Hello. Sorry dear friend but did you make a mistake about Ketron Audya? I have Audya 76 and Audya 5 also (of course and Yamaha Genos). However the latest model that contained Floppy Disc 3.5" it was SD5 before Audya release.
Audya include HD or optional SSD, two USB-2 Host for USB Drive and one USB-1 Slave.

Rich Z · December 22, 2021, 07:56:00 PM

Quote from: Sokratis1974 on December 21, 2021, 11:41:57 PM
Hello. Sorry dear friend but did you make a mistake about Ketron Audya? I have Audya 76 and Audya 5 also (of course and Yamaha Genos). However the latest model that contained Floppy Disc 3.5" it was SD5 before Audya release.
Audya include HD or optional SSD, two USB-2 Host for USB Drive and one USB-1 Slave.

Well, that is certainly possible. I did make a mistake once. I thought I had made a mistake, but it turned out I was incorrect and hadn't.

I tried looking up photos of the Audya, and you are right. Darn if I can find any with a floppy disk drive. But in my mind's eye I can see it clearly. Right where the USB drive is on the Genos, in that same area. Maybe I just dreamed it one night and it stuck as memory. Or perhaps I have slip streamed into another universe via the Mandala Effect.

Anyway, sorry if my false memory offended anyone. But I could have sworn......

Sokratis1974 · December 22, 2021, 11:48:52 PM

Quote from: Rich Z on December 22, 2021, 07:56:00 PM
Well, that is certainly possible. I did make a mistake once. I thought I had made a mistake, but it turned out I was incorrect and hadn't.

I tried looking up photos of the Audya, and you are right. Darn if I can find any with a floppy disk drive. But in my mind's eye I can see it clearly. Right where the USB drive is on the Genos, in that same area. Maybe I just dreamed it one night and it stuck as memory. Or perhaps I have slip streamed into another universe via the Mandala Effect.

Anyway, sorry if my false memory offended anyone. But I could have sworn......

No problem dear friend!!.. Merry Christmas!!!