Considering buying a Tyros, but have a few questions

[John UK]

Hello,

I am currently considering whether to purchase a Tyros (maybe a Tyros 5 76 key) but I have only been playing electric organs. The main reason is the organ is too heavy to move, and a Tyros though heavy can be placed in the back of a car and taken to friends / family. I still class myself as a beginner organ player, most of the music books I have are by Kenneth Baker, and the pieces have 3/4 finger chords and bass pedal notes - the songs generally sound incomplete without the bass pedal (I rarely if ever use the organ's accompaniment) . Will I be able to easily adapt these pieces of music to play on a Tyros and will the Tyros be able to fill in the bass pedal notes? Do many members here play the electric organ as well as a keyboard, if so how do you adapt to switching between the two instruments?

Is the Tyros sufficiently well built / rugged enough to cope with being lifted and transported in a car boot (considering our roads are getting more pot holes every month) or is it not really designed for being transported around. I don't want to buy a case as the added weight of a case would likely make it too heavy for me to to carry.

The Tyros 5 is a few years old now, is it still easy to get replacement parts from Yamaha and find places to repair them in the UK?

Thank you - John

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi John  :

A lot of questions. 🤓

Why not buy a brand new SX900/61k with a touch screen instead of a second hand Tyros5 ?

An arranger keyboard is a different instrument than an organ.

All detailed answers / information will be found on the internet.

Good luck ! JH

[pjd]

Hi John --

Following up on Jeff's suggestion, the free Church Organ expansion pack on the SX900 is an alternative to Tyros 5 and its "Organ World" for classical organ. I've played organ (liturgical music) since I was a kid, and I find the Organ World voices to be overdone. The expansion pack has individual ranks which can be combined (layered). I use the expansion pack on Genos having first played with it on PSR-S950.

The Church Organ expansion pack is a free download from Yamaha Musicsoft.

The SX900 has the new user interface, built-in expansion memory, is lighter and might save some money vs. a used T5. There is also the issue of built-in speakers or not.

As to adapting, I don't have trouble between organ and non-organ voices on the keyboard itself. "For real" church organs (with AGO action) have a much heavier feel. I don't think about it too much, but arthritic fingers prefer the lighter weight. 

Hope this helps -- pj

[SciNote]

The question about converting your playing style from that of an organ with bass pedals to a single keyboard is certainly a valid question with important factors to consider.  I learned how to play keyboard on organ, and that is why my keyboard set-up looks like this:

https://app.box.com/s/mz81amwvxbh3bqs4i9lod9ixuwafxrud

(click the link to see the photo)

Okay, since that photo was taken, I have mounted the outboard reverb unit to the right of the PSR-E433, and I upgraded the volume pedal.

But adjusting to playing without bass pedals may very well require you to alter the way you play at least some of your songs.  On an organ, you can play left-hand chords that are higher-pitched and instrumental in nature (such as with a string or piano sound), and you know that you'll get your bass through the pedals.  On a keyboard like a Tyros (or any other single keyboard instrument), if you play the left and right hand parts of a particular song the same way you did on an organ, you'll likely notice the lack of bass because of the missing bass pedals.  And if you just try to play the left-hand chords in a lower octave to compensate, you'll likely get a muddy sound by playing all of those low notes so close together.

This is something that I am thinking about as I am considering doing some gigging in the future, as carrying around the set-up I have pictured above is certainly not an option.  I am thinking of buying a portable set of bass pedals, but they are quite hard to find these days.  An E-bay search for "bass pedals" mostly turns up a list of effects pedals typically used with a guitar or bass guitar.  Some Classic units, like the Moog Taurus pedals, can fetch crazy sums of money -- if you can find them.  One thing I'm considering is getting a set of "dummy pedals" (bass pedals that just have the switches for the pedals and no sound-generation circuitry -- these sometimes show up on E-bay and look like they are just taken from an old home organ) and then hard-wiring them to the bottom octave of a small cheap keyboard that has a decent bass sound (which is essentially what I'm doing with the bass pedals in that photo -- the keyboard is an old Casio MT-68 and is mounted inside that assembly and is therefore not visible in that photo).

Like you, I rarely use styles for full auto-accompaniment.  I mainly just use them for drum backgrounds, just like the rhythm section of a Classic home organ.  Now, with an arranger keyboard, you can generally set up the auto-accompaniment to play minimal automatic background while allowing you to play your own chords with the left hand, and then it will fill in its own bass line.  But you would have to decide if that is acceptable to you for a couple reasons.  First of all, you will be allowing the keyboard to play the bass for you, instead of you actually playing it yourself.  And secondly, depending on the notes you play with your left hand, the auto-accompaniment may occasionally play a chord that you were not expecting.

As I come up with arrangements of songs with the idea of playing them on the keyboard only, and without bass pedals, I usually select a nice, full sound for the left-hand part of the split keyboard, and I often play bass octaves or octaves-and-fifths (such as C, G, then the C an octave above the first C) to get a full-bodied left-hand sound without it sounding muddied.  But this can vary, depending on the song.  Sometimes, I just play an improvised bass line with my left hand.  And then, I often play right-hand chords, with the melody note usually the top note of the chord, to fill in the harmonies that would otherwise be missing by not playing a full chord with the left hand.

[DerekA]

I would suggest that moving from an organ to an arranger means embracing the arranger way of working - which is using accompaniment styles.

Play the chord with your left hand and the machine provides a full accompaniment pattern including a bass pattern. If you use the on-bass option you can control the root bass note to play slashed chords. Yes, you've giving up a degree of "control" over what the accompaniment sounds like - but that's what an arranger is for, I think.

(Of course, something like the SX900 does offer a lot of choice on revoicing the accompaniment, muting individual parts, and even programming your own parts if you want to.)

[Graham UK]

John UK.  I have a TYROS 5-76 Twinset with NP30 Lower FOR SALE.
The T5 can be purchased only if you require.
Tyros has a far better key-bed to play than the PSR -SX models

SEE BUY & SELL Section. Also in Tyros 5 Section.
Health problems puss me to sell

[Del]

Many of us probably came from a two tiered organ including myself, my last organ was a Hohner D98 and learnt through Kenneth Baker series books without the accompianment, just Left hand for rhythm and the bass pedals, but I have no regrets of going to an arranger keyboard  awhere the base line is automatically played with the background accompianment. The amount of styles that are available for songs and the tweaking of these styles you can swap the base lines in the styles that suits you best, one of our members (The lone arranger (Drake)) does this quite frequently.
I currently am playing a T5/76 and loving it, it is a formidable keyboard and if I upgrade I would probably keep the T5, I already use a stand that can accomodate a second keyboard so an upgrade is likely.

[John UK]

I'll just say a quick thank you to everyone who has replied. Quite a bit for me to read which I appreciate, I'll add a more detailed reply when I get some time as in the middle of my working day at the moment.
My main concern with playing an arranger style is whether I will be able to play my old organ pieces from the Kenneth Baker books and set up an accompaniment to play the correct bass pedal notes, and if so will this be a slow/difficult task or is it relatively quick to do. I can remember years ago when I had a simple keyboard the auto accompaniment would play the wrong bass notes for certain chords!
Due to wanting a portable option, I wouldn't be wanting to transport separate pedals and a second keyboard, though it might be something I would consider adding for home use.

[mikf]

You will not be setting up the accompaniment and the bass pedals, you will just select the appropriate accompaniment. Its already done for you. Of course you can modify or even create accompaniment on the arranger, but that is a step way down the line, which many never need.
But one change you really need to consider is using lead sheets instead of the Kenneth Baker books. They are really designed perfectly for use with the arranger accompaniment. People on this site can help out with lead sheets.
You might think this is a big step out your comfort zone, but it really is not, because it's easier than using standard sheet music. To effectively use an arranger you need to get comfortable with chord symbols and playing chords.
Mike

[SciNote]

Yes, these are all good points.  One of the main purposes of an arranger keyboard is to use the full auto-accompaniment backing styles, but you certainly don't have to.  So you might ask, why buy an arranger?  And the answer would be to get a large number of high-quality sounds that can be split along the keyboard and layered.  But it also depends on if you at least use the backing drums of the styles, like I do.

I say this because, if you do not want ANY automatic background at all, then an arranger may be overkill.  If your budget includes a Tyros 5/76, then you can look into the various synthesizers out there, from Yamaha and other manufacturers.  Many of them allow splitting the keyboard and layering the sounds, like an arranger, but do not have the elaborate styles that an arranger has.  In fact, there is another recent thread on this board discussing the differences, pros, and cons of arrangers versus synthesizers -- you may want to check that out.  Some synthesizers do have backing drum tracks, as well, but may not have as much flexibility over those tracks.  I was recently reading some information on the Roland Jupiter-X.  I don't have the details, but it seems to have a dedicated drum track, and may be worth looking into.

When I bought my PSR-E433, I was also considering a Yamaha MM6 synth, which was being discontinued at the time and was not much more expensive.  It did have built in drum tracks, but the reason that I did not buy it was because, as far as I could tell, when using these drum tracks in conjunction with storage memory patches (the equivalent of registrations on an arranger), the memory would also store a particular drum track at a particular tempo, which I did not want.  I wanted to be able to choose a particular drum pattern and tempo for a song, and then freely be able to change patches/registrations to get different instrumentation throughout the song without changing the drum pattern and tempo.  It is possible that the MM6 had a "freeze" function that I missed, but I did not see it at the time.

So, even though I do not use full auto-accompaniment, I bought what would be considered an arranger (though a lower-end one) because I still wanted background drums, as well as the ability to split the keyboard and layer sounds.  It cost $250 US at the time, and there was no way you'd get a new synth with those features for that price.

But for the price of even a used Tyros 5/76, you have plenty of synthesizer options that may be more suited to what you want to do.  You just want to be sure of their capabilities if you do want at least backing drums.

Learning chords and chord symbols is definitely a good suggestion for an arranger, or when playing any keyboard, as well.  It certainly makes learning new songs easier, whether you use an arranger's auto-accompaniment or whether you play your own left-hand parts.  But of course, some people would say it is not as "disciplined" as playing a complete piece of music, with right and left hand parts provided like a Classical piece, as written.

As for an arranger's auto-accompaniment playing the exact bass notes of a particular piece when using one of the auto-accompaniment styles?  Yeah, that's not going to happen!  The backing styles of an arranger are designed to play a full, orchestral pattern that repeats every measure or so.  They are designed to sound good and musically correct when playing a particular chord.  But there is no way that a generic background style (such as "rock" or "swing") will know every bass note to a particular song.  However, song-specific styles are often available, and I'm sure that these get much closer for the particular song that they are designed for, but I would also guess that, since they are based on repeating patterns as well, they also will not always be 100% true to the original recording of the song.  Most arrangers also have a built-in sequencer for recording your own entire songs, so you could actually set one of these recordings up ahead of time, and pre-record your bass line, and then play along with that recording when you want to play that song.  But this would involve a lot of prep-work to build a library of recordings for each song you want to play.

It really all comes down to exactly how you want to use the keyboard and the type of music that you want to play.

[Del]

You will not be setting up the accompaniment and the bass pedals, you will just select the appropriate accompaniment. Its already done for you. Of course you can modify or even create accompaniment on the arranger, but that is a step way down the line, which many never need.
But one change you really need to consider is using lead sheets instead of the Kenneth Baker books. They are really designed perfectly for use with the arranger accompaniment. People on this site can help out with lead sheets.
You might think this is a big step out your comfort zone, but it really is not, because it's easier than using standard sheet music. To effectively use an arranger you need to get comfortable with chord symbols and playing chords.
Mike

John
Mike is totally right in what he has written,moving to lead sheets will be far better and you will find the transition from the organ to an arranger alot easier by using them, this being said does not mean that your Kenneth Baker books are deemed as useless, all you need to read is the the melody line and the chord symbols.
You mentioned about the bass line in the books, well today I opened Kenneth Baker Book 5 and played Jezebel on a Beguine as written on the music, The Beguine bass pattern on variation "A" on the Tyros 5 is exactly the same as written on the music not only that the rhythm played by the acoustic guitar is the same too, I am not saying that you will always find the exact rhythm and bass lines in styles that match these books but you may be pleasently surprised at what styles are available to use instead and some you may have to adapt but like Mike said adapting a style is further down the road.

I hope this helps

[Jeff Hollande]

There are so many good free styles available here you need at least two years to play them all.😂

It might take some time to find which style you need but there is no doubt you will find what you want.🤓

Take care, JH

[John UK]

I've been reading the answers, thank you, but been offline for a couple of days. I think I will be ok using the sheet music designed for arrangers, as even with the organ I tend to read the left hand chord names as I still struggle to read all the actual notes for the chords. I usually play the same exact notes for the C6 and Am7 chords, will an arranger play the corresponding C and A bass (pedal) notes, or will I have to change the notes for the Am7 chord?

I have tried playing some organ pieces on a synthesizer, but there are some pieces which seem incomplete without the bass pedal notes. I don't have any accompaniments on the synthesizer. This is leading me to consider getting a Tyros. Bob's and Del B's replies have helped me better understand the way an arranger works, I will have to explore the styles available.

Graham, thank you for advising about your Tyros5, I'm sorry to hear that you are unable to continue playing. I'm still in the making up my mind stage at the moment, and whether I should be spending this much money on a Tyros or other keyboard. But yours does look to be a good conditioned example.

I'm not sure why, but I am still preferring the Tyros over the PSR-SX900, even though it is less portable. Having 76 keys appeals to me, and it is nice to have a better quality keyboard. I can manage to move one of my 16Kg synthesizers around though it's not easy, so I should be able to move a wider Tyros 76 key from the house to car to house!!??

[mikf]

The arrangers are very versatile and there are different fingering modes you can select which change how the arranger responds, but there is no way it will change based on what you have in mind, it can only respond to what you play. If you play the notes CEGA it will assume you are playing C6 and likely respond with an C bass - although it's not quite that simple because depends how the bass is programmed in the style. It could be a very complex bass line. But it cannot do something different when you play those exact same notes again. BUT ....  If you select the appropriate fingering mode and just play C then A it will play the different chords for you. It's complicated to explain.
Mike

[DerekA]

In the mode callex fingered on bass, which I use, then playing CEGA will give you C6 with a bass pattern based on C, while playing ACEG will give you Am7 with a bass pattern based on A.

If you're comfortable with chord inversions this mode is really easy to use for slashed chords.

[Jeff Hollande]

A difficult decision to be made ... 🤔

If I were you, I would also think about buying a second hand Yamaha synth ( a Motif e. g. ) but ...

Who am I to tell you what to do. 🤓

Good luck with your choice, JH

[TiasDad]

Maybe a little late but I was in the same boat. What swayed it for me is the portability aspect.
A Tyros has seperate speakers and subwoofer whereas the SX??? speakers are built in, making far easier to take anywhere.
I take mine in the caravan and can often be heard in the awning, playing away.

Hope this helps in your decision.

[John UK]

I still haven't really decided what the best choice would be. I've been looking for a Tyros 5 76 key even though it would be the most impractical, and then started looking at a used Genos, but there's nothing on the used market within a reasonable distance with a fair price. I'm hoping to avoid having to drive a 400+ mile round trip to buy one! I only briefly looked at the PSR SX900 but dismissed it, I might have to re-consider it as an option. I don't want to buy a synth, as already have two synths and I don't know if a Motif would have all the features of an arranger keyboard.

[Jeff Hollande]

It will not be easy to buy a new SX Yamaha.
There ain't no stock to be found, I am afraid.

Hopefully you can find a second hand, in mint condition, SFF2 Yamaha.

All the best, JH



.

[EileenL]

John is in the UK and should not have trouble finding an SX900 or Genos.

[andyg]

Re: Kenneth Baker books

You will have to remove EVERY 6th chord in the Complete Organ Player books. They are usually incorrect anyway, but Ken insisted that they made a 'richer' sound. I and many colleagues argued with him but he wouldn't budge! They are so annoying that they have earned a nickname in the organ business - "Kenths"!

If at some point you come across a non-Baker book and there's a real 6th chord to be played, you will have to play it in root position, i.e with the key note at the bottom of the chord. That's how a Yamaha lets you make the distinction between, say, C6 and Am7. C6 will be C E G A, other combinations of the notes will produce Am7.

And if you're playing proper chords, you may as well switch the fingering mode to AI Fingered. It won't affect your basic chords in any way, but at some point you may want something a little more fancy and AI Mode lets you do all sorts of things! And consider moving the Style & Left  split point from the default F#2 up a semitone to G2. You can then play a Bb6 (I doubt if you'll ever need a B6 requiring a G# at the top!) or the very common G/B (G chord with B bass) which is simply played as B G (left to right) or a G over a B (right to left to agree with the chord symbol).

[Jeff_M]

I too went from 30+ years of standard organ (with pedals) playing to a keyboard strictly for reasons of portability.  When my dad went into a nursing home it was the only way I could play for him, which he enjoyed.  Soooooo, 13 years ago I sold my much-loved Yamaha FX20 (or, actually gave it away) and went to a PSR S710.  I play by ear and would consider myself to be a fairly advanced player.  Well, the change in technique was a learning curve in itself but three keyboards later I'm loving it.  The biggest challenge for me was getting the keyboard to play the proper bass note for the chord I was playing.  While they all do well with a root chord, if you want, for example, an E bass with a C major chord you have to play an entire octave C chord with an E on the bottom.  This I found to be a challenge as I was throwing my standard selection of left hand chords on the organ and of course doing the bass with my left foot.  With the keyboard, using my favorite chords in the left hand didn't always give the correct bass note.   A song such as "Whiter Shade of Pale" just doesn't sound right unless you get the bassline down correctly (which essentially walks down from C).  So, if I'm playing it in the key of C, I'd use these left hand chord variations:

G C E  (C chord)
B D G B (G chord played like this give a B bass note)
A C E (Am)
G C E G (this is a C chord which will give G for a bass note)
A C F (F chord)
E A C E (Am giving an E bass)
D F A (Dm)
C F A C  (F chord giving a C bass)
and so on....


Confusing?  I hope not, but this was the biggest challenge for me going from an organ to a keyboard.  You often must play an entire octave of chord notes which is limiting for some players; not for me as I have long spidery fingers.  So, after an overhaul of my left hand chord comfort zone I found the keyboard to be very satisfying compared to the organ.  My present PSR SX900, which I've had since last December, is fabulous. I must say that I DO miss playing pop music on an organ(using pedals) which seems to be a dying art.  Listen to Mike Reed on Youtube and he'll show you how it's done, but of course he's well into his 70's.   

I wish you the best of luck and of course enjoyment in whichever course you choose. 

[DerekA]

I play using fingered on bass mode all the time, and GCE is normally enough to trigger C/G. You should not need to hold 4 keys down.

[EileenL]

You can do this using AI fingering with just two fingers for slashed chords.

[John UK]

I am late in replying to all the people here who have kindly provided more answers and explanations than I was expecting, thank you again for taking the time to help me.
I am now understanding the differences in how an arranger works, and think I just need to learn or relearn the required notes for a number of the chords I've learnt from playing the organ.
However I can now bring this query to a close as a couple of days ago I managed to buy a Tyros 5 76key which is in excellent condition. I haven't looked around the styles very much yet, but tried playing A Whiter Shade of Pale from my Kenneth Baker books and found a few chords will need the notes adjusted!

[Del]

Congrats John on getting the T5 you won't be disappoint and you will have many hours of fun and pleasure exploring the instrument

[Toril S]

I am so happy for you John. You will love the Tyros!
For A whiter shade of pale, set the fingering mode on Fingered on Bass, then move your base note down the scale and it will respond.

[pedro_pedroc]

Well.

I didn't read all replies, but I have some opinion about your questions.

I started playing organ, and moved to keyboards very quickly.

I already saw people that play keyboards and bought a bass pedal to play with, and I sure you'll find one that fits your needs.
However, maybe you may not need a bass pedal, because the styles will play the bass if you want to do so. And you can edit the bass and make the adjustments you need.

About buying a tyros 5, ow man, it's a great instrument. Personally, I prefer an used tyros 5 than a new SX900, the sound quality in the tyros is superior overall.

But, keep in mind tyros is a heavy instrument. It's easy to go gig with SX900.

Best wishes  from Brazil

Pedro Eleuterio

[Divemaster]

Hi John

Here's my gut feeling on the Tyros.

I've just sold mine on. Not because of any inherent issues with it, but quite simply because it's OLD.

We all know that some keyboards go on for ever, and I've been lucky in that few of mine have ever needed attention. But taking the age of Tyros instruments into consideration, I would be looking at a Brand New 3 Year guaranteed PSR-SX700 or even a PSR-SX900.

Like you, I have every single Kenneth Baker book that he ever wrote. I also grew up with church and other organs.
Lose the feet is my advice....It's an easy transition to a modern keyboard, and the sounds of a modern instrument will rapidly convince you that buying older technology is for the birds.

I LOVED my Tyros, but as the years march on, finding spare parts, and repairers who will fit such parts becomes more difficult.
Also, setting up a Tyros, whilst not taking long, is quite a cumbersome and heavy keyboard with all its leads and such.
Plug the SX700 into the mains, and start playing....It's that simple. One plug.


So my overall advice is NOT to buy Tyros. You're buying blind, because there's no telling how long the one you buy may last. Many of them will have had the life gigged out of them, they are all OLD and many will be uncared for.  Tyros models are now between 9 and 18 years old.
Prices for second hand Tyros instruments are so artificially high as to be ridiculous, when for the same money you can buy brand new, and get a hugely better experience.

Go down to your local music dealer....Try the SX700 or the SX900.....Get the dealer to play it for you.....you won't regret the journey.

Just my take on it. Spend wisely my friend.