Genos and PSR-SX900 sound compared

[anotherscott]

Very interesting article - so essentially the difference between MODX and Genos CFX "voices" is in that extra layer (part #3) of CFX samples with the "different" filter settings. I wonder how different they are, and if it might be possible to use YEM to  build a voice similar to that extra layer. It would be interesting to hear that part on its own to get some feel for what it's adding.

The basic difference is that the MODX piano is made up of 18 elements (essentially 18 sets of wave data, which can triggered under different circumstances), whereas Genos is limited to 8 elements. The article does talk about part 3 having different filter programming... I don't know about that, but based on this video, part 3 has the samples for all the high (undamped) notes.

https://youtu.be/xaXw0LC34gk

[motekmusic]

Hi

I have both and was intrigued at the beginning of ownership to find differences in voice sounds.   The only way for me to judge
was to play just the basic raw voice.. no effects, nada.   Also tried to compare the demo voices.  It was difficult to find any
discernible difference between the 2.   Once the effects are put in motion of course the differences are more discernible, but
out of the box it sounds the same.. to me .   However the one only thing that was different was the sound of the styles.(sx900)
much sharper,  stronger,, a bit louder.   Am interested in knowing if others are just judging voice sound plain out of the box??
PS..   not discounting the sound systems used.
Interesting topic.


cheers
elaine

[BogdanH]

..The only way for me to judge was to play just the basic raw voice.. no effects, nada.   Also tried to compare the demo voices.  It was difficult to find any discernible difference between the 2..

-I think that this is the only proper way to compare voices (without any effects applied). Of course both keyboard must be connected to mixer, so the same PA/speaker system is used.

And even then, it's sometimes hard to be really sure. For example, if one keyboard is only slightly louder than another, that keyboard will sound better to us. And then the "human part" plays the role too.. we expect that more expensive (bigger, better looking) keyboard "must" sound better -it's a thing that happens in our brain.
My opinion.. I don't believe that Yamaha recorded samples especially for Genos. That is, I'm pretty sure, that for the same voices, same samples are used in PSR-SX.
There are other things that make Genos better sounding (especially if a pro is playing on it): special voices (i.e SA2), better keybed (+aftertouch), more sophisticated sound processing, etc.

Bogdan

[pjd]

My opinion.. I don't believe that Yamaha recorded samples especially for Genos. That is, I'm pretty sure, that for the same voices, same samples are used in PSR-SX.

There are other things that make Genos better sounding (especially if a pro is playing on it): special voices (i.e SA2), better keybed (+aftertouch), more sophisticated sound processing, etc.

I agree with Bogdan. Yamaha (Roland, Korg) are the world's biggest re-cyclers -- of waveforms (AKA samples). They simply do not have enough sound development resources to revamp waveforms with every new product, flagship or not. Yamaha usually add a few genuinely new, "from scratch" voices while the older voices drift into the Legacy folder. They tend to keep everything (flash memory is cheap). That's why Yamaha arranger backward-compatibility is pretty good.

Genos has enough DSP resources to put an insert effect on every style part (eight parts). SX900 can put a DSP insert effect on  two parts. (See the effect diagram in the Genos Ref Manual, page 132 and the table in the SX900 manual, page 105.)

The extra DSP effects give styles a more "studio finished" sound. Genos also has more effect types than SX900 like the UNICOMP compressor. The extras add up.

All the best -- pj

[anotherscott]

I have both and was intrigued at the beginning of ownership to find differences in voice sounds.   The only way for me to judge
was to play just the basic raw voice.. no effects, nada.   Also tried to compare the demo voices.  It was difficult to find any
discernible difference between the 2.

The differences may be come more noticeable once you know more precisely what it is you're listening for. The place to look for the differences are, well, the places where the wave sets are different. The main difference is probably in the number of velocity layers. So if you you play just one note (with no effects) and gradually increase from the quietest to the loudest you can play that note, you should hear a smoother transition in the sound, with more of the tonal differences that come from playing piano keys with different velocities (as opposed to just changes in loudness). It would help if you used MIDI to play both from the same board (because different actions provide different velocity responsiveness), and it should be a hammer action (which gives you more fine control over dynamics than when playing a non-hammer action board).

At certain velocities, the two should sound the same, because presumably many samples are identical on both instruments. But the transitions in timbre from soft to loud should be less noticeable and more natural sounding when there are more velocity layers, and the board doesn't have to "jump" between more coarse approximations. Of course, music doesn't consist of playing one note at all volumes. ;-) But once you "lock in" to what the differences are, you might notice a more natural expressivity when you play with varying dynamics on the board with more velocity layers. That's also why so many VSTs boast about how many velocity layers they have.

Another difference is the key release sample on the MODX/Montage version. You won't hear it when you're playing notes, but it will make a subtle but noticeable difference when you release the notes (when the sustain pedal isn't depressed).

[Keyboard Master]

would anyone with experience with both units
kindly give their impression of noticeable differences/if any 
in the  sound quality of each machine.
i.e. is it just that there are more  features  on GENOS  or does it produce an overall more impressive sound quality than the PSR-SX900
 

i understand the REVO drums  and Super articulation of certain samples are better on the GENOS
but i am concerned specifically with the GENERAL SOUND quality, e.g. does a STYLE on the GENOS
sound noticeably better than the same STYLE on the PSR-SX900?
Does a guitar strum in a STYLE  on the GENOS  sound clearer/ more authentic than that of the PSR?

i thank you for this forum and look forward to your helpful responses

GL

I found this video very interesting it explanes about sound quaity you might can use it as a refersnce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Q2vIvyb4Y

[anotherscott]

The differences may be come more noticeable once you know more precisely what it is you're listening for. The place to look for the differences are, well, the places where the wave sets are different. The main difference is probably in the number of velocity layers. So if you you play just one note (with no effects) and gradually increase from the quietest to the loudest you can play that note, you should hear a smoother transition in the sound, with more of the tonal differences that come from playing piano keys with different velocities (as opposed to just changes in loudness). It would help if you used MIDI to play both from the same board (because different actions provide different velocity responsiveness), and it should be a hammer action (which gives you more fine control over dynamics than when playing a non-hammer action board).

At certain velocities, the two should sound the same, because presumably many samples are identical on both instruments. But the transitions in timbre from soft to loud should be less noticeable and more natural sounding when there are more velocity layers, and the board doesn't have to "jump" between more coarse approximations. Of course, music doesn't consist of playing one note at all volumes. ;-) But once you "lock in" to what the differences are, you might notice a more natural expressivity when you play with varying dynamics on the board with more velocity layers. That's also why so many VSTs boast about how many velocity layers they have.

Another difference might be the key release sample on the MODX/Montage version. You won't hear it when you're playing notes, but it will make a subtle but noticeable difference when you release the notes (when the sustain pedal isn't depressed). Though it's also possible than an 8-element implementation could still include this as well.