Editing a Style with Style Creator

[tgv77]

Hello everyone,
I'm having trouble with the style creator. I would like to add an arpeggio to an existing file. The arpeggio is very simple, it is B-E-G- playing on 4 octaves from B1 to B5, so it's only the white keys and I record the 4 bars using the step function.
The problem comes when I am playing the style with the keyboard. The 1st bar is played correctly but the 3 other bars have some of the notes mismatching.
I have checked in the EDIT tab that my record is correct by listening it note by note.
I checked on this forum and Youtube many tutorials, but unfortunatly I have not found the solution.
Doest someone know what I am doing wrong ?
Thanks for your assistance

[ckobu]

Yamaha Style uses CASM parameters to adjust the notes played. Everything is in the SFF menu. In these 4 videos I explained how it works.

01. SFF Edit - Source Root/Chord
https://youtu.be/vLGLjvfRJ2s

02. SFF Edit - NTT/NTR [Root Trans, Root Fixed]
https://youtu.be/Gh0-keHru3A

03. SFF Edit - NTT/NTR [Guitar Rule]
https://youtu.be/bJ8Sip05_24

04. SFF Edit - RTR [Hight Key - Note Limit]
https://youtu.be/LnYs0n88g3E

If you could tell me what the arrangement of harmonies is through 4 bars, I could tell you the settings for your arpeggio.

[tgv77]

Thank you for your response.
I am going to watch your video (I have already watched some of them and they are very helpfull)

Here is the arpeggio, it is very simple but fit well with a song I am learning today.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XeHGrnyazTsAXcEl_iKsqP8tMdQtTwbq/view?usp=sharing

[DrakeM]

Simple to explain how to record this riff into your style. I just need to know a bit more information from you.

1. Is the riff you want to record ONE measure or longer?
2. Is the riff played over ONE chord or MORE chords?

Regards
Drake

[tgv77]

Hello Drake,
The riff is 4 mesures long and will be played using several chords.
Thanks for your support

[mikf]

if you change chord the accompaniment changes with it ie the individual notes of your riff. When you play notes on the style creator they are based on a Cmaj7 chord. When you play chords in normal play the notes played are worked out in real time according to CASM rules. So if you play a G maj7  chord for example the arpeggio notes you programmed as B D G will become F# B D. It might be different again if you play a simple G chord or G7 chord.
One of the toughest things in using style creator is when you try to use riffs or mini melody lines, because its hard to picture how that behaves when chords are changing.
mike

[tgv77]

@mikf,
Thanks for your advice.
I understand your point, but I have no trouble when I play and change the chord. The style sounds ok.
My probleme is the following:
My arpeggio length is 1 bar. It is repeated 4 times in my measure (4/4 time signature). This measure is then repeated 4 times to fit with the length of the style I want to edit)
That means that I repeat my arpeggio 4 x4 =16 times
The issue is that the 1st beat of each measure is played correcly when the 3 last beats (which are identical to the 1st one) sound differently.
I think the problem comes from the tuning of the tab "parameters" in Style creator like ckobu said but I can"t find the right tuning.

[DrakeM]

We have too many cooks replying here.

Using the CM7 chord to record his riff will NEVER play correctly, no matter what you tell him to do.

The LENGTH of the Main of the style does not matter at this point. So, a 4 Measure in your main at this point is Okay.

Next question, because this pattern is to play over 16 measures, is the pattern supposed to change with the CHORD change?

Regards
Drake

[tgv77]

Yes the pattern need to adapt to the chord.

[DrakeM]

Do you live in the USA? If so I can call you and this will be super simple.

[tgv77]

No, I am living in France.

[DrakeM]

In order to record using the Style Creator (SC) you must always record in the key of C.

Looking at the notes you are wanting to play B-E-G, are these the notes you would play if you were playing a C chord?

If they are NOT the notes you would play over a C chords you must transpose them to the notes you would play over a C chord. What would be the notes you will need to use?

[mikf]

Yes, you might want B EG because this would be a 3rd inversion of Cmaj7.
And it is far from simple to have a repeating riff of the SAME notes rather than notes which match the chord being played. In fact I think it might be impossible, because you can't have an accompaniment part stay the same while chords change. 
And you must record style parts only in the CHORD of Cmaj7, not the key of C.
Mike

[DrakeM]

okay ... mikf,

You help him ... if you can't PM me .. and I will teach him.

[tgv77]

I record in CM7 and the note B-E-G should be Ok.
Indeed my arpeggio last one beat only and it repeats during the 3 last beats. I change chord at the beat only so the style should be able to follow.
But may be I asking too much to Yamaha software.
Another solution is to make a pad but its less convenient to play.

[mikf]

I am a bit confused by your explanation Thierry. You say your 3 note arpeggio is 1 bar in length? Did you really mean 1 beat in length?
What chord are you actually playing when you play the song in real time? Is it a 4 note maj7 or just a simple major triad? I ask because I wonder if the issue you are having is that although the B is part of the Cmaj7, it is not the root note of the Cmaj7. So the CASM will be interpreting the first note as being a semi tone lower than the root, ( which is what you want), but I wonder if then the CASM gets thrown by the higher notes where B actually is part of the Cmaj7. Just a thought. Try playing a 4 note maj7 and see what happens and if it is different.
The notes you record do not have to be part of the C chord. What essentially happens in the software is that it calculates every note you record relative to a Cmaj7 chord and then recalculates real time in the same relative position to whatever chord you actually play. But  this can produce some very peculiar results when you you record phrases and then play different chords like dom7th, 6ths, diminished, half diminished etc. Essentially anything not a maj7 it can be a bit unpredictable.  Its also an overly simplified explanantion of CASM, which has many rules. There are a few on the forum that have an in-depth knowledge of how CASM works that might be able to throw some light on this.
Mike

[tgv77]

@mikf

I am a bit confused by your explanation Thierry. You say your 3 note arpeggio is 1 bar in length? Did you really mean 1 beat in length?

The arpeggio I recorded with Style creator is very simple, it is B-E-G- playing on 4 octaves from B1 to B5
So it is like this:
B1-E1-G1-B2-E2-G2-......E4-G4-B5 all of this is one measure.

What chord are you actually playing when you play the song in real time?

I am playing in real time for the song : B -F# - Cm#

I have the feeling that I will never solve my problem. 
Anyway, at least I have learned few things today with you.
Thanks for your support

[mikf]

So it is triplets of one beat per set. Did you try playing major7ths chords qto see if it changed how it sounded?
Let me make sure I understand what you expected to happen, when you played a chord of B you expected it to play A# D# F# etc
mike

[Joe H]

C-E-G-B is a CM7 chord.  The "B" is used for 7ths. The keyboard ignores the B except when playing 7th chords.  This was explained to me by Programmer / PSR Professor, Michael Bedesem some time ago.

From the S970 Reference Manual:

Record a phrase in CM7 (for playing appropriate notes while chords change during performance)
Rules when recording a Main or Fill

With the default initial settings, the Source Root/Chord (page 42) is set to CM7. This means that you
should record a Source Pattern using a CM7 scale, which will change according to the chords you
specify during normal performance. Record a bass line, phrase or chord backing which you want to hear
when CM7 is specified. See below for details.

• Use only the CM7 scale tones when recording the BASS and PHRASE channels (i.e., C, D, E, G, A,
and B).

• Use only the chord tones when recording the CHORD and PAD channels (i.e., C, E, G, and B).

Joe H

[tgv77]

@ mikf
I played  M7 chord with my left hand on the keyboard and it doesn't change anything.

@Joe
Thanks for your help.
My arpeggio is recoreded using root chord CM7 and I am using only the notes  B-E-G when recording.

When playing live I play with my left hand B -F# - Cm#. I change these chords only at each measure (never in the middle of a measure).

According to my understanding that should fit with your requirements 

When digging that problem, I tried another experiment: I recorded a new style from scratch and recorded only the Phrase channel with one measure, root CM7,  recorded the notes  B-E-G. When playing live the result is the same 

My question: is it possible to record a phrase which is 1 measure long ?

[ckobu]

Hi tgv77,
i don't have permission for the link you posted to see your example you have a problem with.
I made one arpeggio accompanied by CHD2. I recorded notes like you, B-E-G in CM7. This accompaniment plays well on all four bars and responds to all types of chords, major, minor, 7th ...
If they could see your problematic style, they could tell you where the mistake is.

PS. The attached file should be renamed, deleted .xls and left only .sty

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[mikf]

There is no obvious reason it should not work, and cboku (and I) tried it without problem. I just noticed that you were doing all this using the step record function rather than playing it so I have to guess that the problem is somewhere in your use of the step entry function. This is not something I have ever used, I play everything on the keyboard. It does not help either that the example you posted cannot be accessed as it has restricted permission. Maybe you can post the actual style with proper access and someone might look at it to see what is wrong. It needs to be posted using a file server like box, with full sharing permission.
Mike

PS - I really wish people would post real first names on their posts, I hate having to respond to cryptic user names. So impersonal.

[ckobu]

There are several reasons for problems like @ tgv77.
One example, each channel has three zones and each of them can have a different setting.
Only when we see the problematic style will we be able to find the cause of the problem.

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[tgv77]

I have 2 good news and one bad news 

Let's start by the good news:
ckobu:
- The style your sent me works perfectly on my keeboard.
- I assemblied your CH2 track in my CH2 style and it works also perfectly.

Now the bad:
I investigated the notes that I recorded with the step function and compared them with the one recorded by ckobu. They are different.

That means that as mikf said the problem probably come from that point.

I have attached the screen shot of the EDIT page of ckobu style ( ckobu.jpg file) and mine own record for comparison (thierry.jpg file), as well as the style file (The attached file should be renamed, deleted .xls and left only .sty).

I hope thay could help, but I definitly make a step foward 



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[mikf]

I was a bit misled by the description as a riff, which I interpreted at first as a repeating phrase, rather than a chord based changing pattern.  But once I understood that you were simply looking for a repeating maj7 arpeggio pattern which changes with the accompaniment, which should easily work, it seemed likely that the fault could be in the data entry. Hopefully you can now identify exactly what you did. All part of the learning process.
Mike

[ckobu]

I looked at your rhythm. At times, many tones are played at the same time on channel 13. It's hard to hear the overall harmony and what's happening in a 2-4 beat.
The problem you are experiencing could be related to the polyphony of the instrument. I don't know which instrument you play. At one point he plays 24 tones at a time. The muted channels on the Style are also added up, and multiplied by the number of elements that make up the instruments. When you add up the right hand you play, it would easily cross the polyphony of 128. That could be a problem why you don't hear the accompaniment we started with in the first post.
The suggestion is to delete the strips that are not needed in Style and clean up the unnecessary tones on channel 13.

[tgv77]

Finally the problem was the DSP which was on and that makes me recording unwanted notes using the step record function.
When putting DSP off, it immediadly solve the problem.

Thanks everybody for your valuable input on that topic. This is very much appreciated.