Problem with USB-MIDI driver

[Francesco Massa]

Hi,
after the last Windows 10 update (2004), Genos disconnects and reconnects continuously and sometimes doesn't recognize the driver (Windows says it's an unknown USB device). Reinstalled the driver 2 times, no success. Any idea? Do you have the same problem?

Thanks a lot

Francesco

[overover]

Hi,
after the last Windows 10 update (2004), Genos disconnects and reconnects continuously and sometimes doesn't recognize the driver (Windows says it's an unknown USB device). Reinstalled the driver 2 times, no success. Any idea? Do you have the same problem? ...

No problems here, Francesco. (See also the attached picture.)

If not done so, I recommend to UNINSTALL the driver completly first (in "Apps & Features"). Then shut down Windows (NOT only restart) and reinstall the driver once more.


P.S.
It could also be a "loose contact" with the USB cable or a USB connector/socket. I suggest to use another USB cable.

Then call up the "Device Manager". You should see the device "Audio, Video and Game Controller > Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver (WDM)". Move the two USB plugs (on the Genos and on the PC) back and forth a little and watch whether this entry in the Device Manager temporarily disappears. This would be an indication of a cable, plug or socket defect.


Best regards,
Chris

[attachment deleted by admin]

[ckobu]

I had the same problem a year ago. It didn't help that the driver was uninstalled several times, the USB cable and the slot on the computer were changed. The antivirus program was shut down, disconnecting other USB devices due to a possible IRQ conflict. Nothing helped.
I made a new installation of the same windows (64bit Professional) and so far everything is working properly.
Even now I don't know what the cause is.??
Watch the 1.46 second video.
https://youtu.be/U9yOmmYcxxw?t=106
By the end of the video, there are three ways to check that the drivers are installed correctly.

[ckobu]

Windows is often unpredictable, especially after they are updated. 
I always connect the USB cable to the back of the computer, directly to the motherboard. Using a USB hub or front panel is not a good option.

[Dromeus]

I've found the problem: my external USB hub! Connecting the Genos directly to the PC, no problem with the driver!

The installation manual of the USB MIDI Driver warns you NOT to use a USB hub (see p.3). Obviously for a reason...

[groovyband.live]

Obviously for a reason...

Yes: poorly coded driver.

As the original poster said everything else was working fine, before and after the update, with or without the hub. Problems with Yamaha proprietary drivers pop up on all the forums. This is widespread. We too have from time to time problems for no apparent reason.

And in 2020 a 4k€ device is still NOT class compliant. Probably we have some ancient Win 3.1 code (and same age HW on the Genos side) that has been patched in some weird (and hence unreliable) way into the 21st century.

For some reason, software in all its forms is not one of the strengths of Yamaha as a company.

[Dromeus]

As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) a class compliant USB connection supports one MIDI port only. Genos (like the Tyros arrangers) are 32 part multitimbral, so you need a proprietary driver to support two MIDI ports over a single USB connection.

What I find annoying is that a 4k€ device does not support a multi port audio interface (besides multi port MIDI) as my 1.2k€ MODX does. Yes it needs the proprietary Yamaha Steinberg driver, but again, this is to be expected.

I had never problems with any class compliant device or Yamaha drivers, but I stay away from USB hubs for MIDI connections (if possible). Net wisdom seems to indicate that even class compliancy does not mean hassle-free, and one advice is to be careful with USB hubs e.g.

https://www.noterepeat.com/articles/pc-troubleshooting/95-troubleshooting-class-compliant-usb-computer-peripherals

[ckobu]

It will be our turn slowly. The new sx600 has a USB audio interface, maybe we have it on Genos2 as well. 
BTW. My "old" KN7000 from 2002 had that technology.

[groovyband.live]

BTW. My "old" KN7000 from 2002 had that technology.

Yes, but Genos, Tyros and PSR all use the same technology and software from 1990s.  And even then was not cutting edge.

I remember buying back then a Generalmusic WK2, which was much more technologically advanced than the corresponding PSR 740. And it was built like a tank, unlike the flimsy PSR.

[groovyband.live]

As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) a class compliant USB connection supports one MIDI port only. Genos (like the Tyros arrangers) are 32 part multitimbral, so you need a proprietary driver to support two MIDI ports over a single USB connection.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/iconnectivity_mioxm.htm

This device has multiple midi ports (4x4) and is midi class compliant, as stated in the listed spec. Sure, it sports 4 usb to host connectors. Nothing prevents Yamaha to do the same, and the user could even use only one, since it is enough 99.9% of the time. Also because only one of the 2 Yamaha's midi ports is really usable as a general purpose sound module. The other is severely limited in functionality (another shortcoming of the ancient Yamaha's firmware).

But we know that Yamaha economise on everything, and even an additional USB connector is too much money for a 4k€ device. After all when it is too much, it is too much.

[Genos!]

...
Also because only one of the 2 Yamaha's midi ports is really usable as a general purpose sound module. The other is severely limited in functionality (another shortcoming of the ancient Yamaha's firmware).
...

Oh, no.

Both midi ports are fully usable at the same time with 128 voice polyphony on each port.

I run a studio and have not run into any major usb driver issues.


The only major issue and oversight is the combination of the following:

1. No usb audio.
2. Unbalanced outputs.
3. SP/DIF digital output.


The FA-08 which I own has BOTH usb audio AND balanced outputs.

No usb digital audio on my $5k+ Genos? No balanced output gives me groundloop problems.
I have to downgrade my interface from ADAT to SP/DIF and I lose i/o when I do that.

While the Genos has some top sounding brass and horns, with good quality revo drums; getting to that sound can sometimes be a bit of a challenge. I do have IMP2 whirlwinds, but why should I have to use them on a $5k+ system? Seems like a $100 additional investment that I shouldn't have had to make!

[Dromeus]

This device has multiple midi ports (4x4) and is midi class compliant, as stated in the listed spec. Sure, it sports 4 usb to host connectors. Nothing prevents Yamaha to do the same

I really hope Yamaha will not do so. When connecting a single device (Genos) to a host I really prefer one USB cable over two of them. Your mileage may vary.

[groovyband.live]

I really hope Yamaha will not do so. When connecting a single device (Genos) to a host I really prefer one USB cable over two of them. Your mileage may vary.

Yamaha arrangers have 2 midi ports in order to allow to reproduce a midi file with the internal midi player (that could saturate 16 channels) and at the same time allow the user to play in real time above the midi file playback (another few midi channels needed) using the built-in keyboard.

In this use case midi in/out is never used.

The midi in is needed when you use the arranger as a sound module ("expander") driven by a PC (sequencer). In this use case 16 midi channels are usually more than enough. Especially if you consider that Genos & Co can only mix down all the incoming midi channels into a single analog audio stream, output trough the onboard speakers and/or analog audio jack.

Who realistically needs 32 input midi channels (= a jam of 32 different instruments) mixed together by the keyboard into a single audio stream?

To say it all, probably the few using the Genos & Co as an expander will only send a single channel at a time (and record back the audio into a DAW). When all the recordings are made, the final mix down is done into the DAW with all the bells and whistles it can offer (including a full stack of effects applicable separately to each channel).

Our software (www.groovyband.live) on the other hand sends up to 16 channels altogether (8 accompaniment parts, 4 parts from the first manual, 4 parts from the second manual + pedalboard). And the result is crowded enough that you really do not need more. And anyway you will be limited by the sound generator polyphony (notes drop out) or DSP effects (audio quality).

So in my opinion a single class compliant midi port is the way to go. I respect your opinion though. If you really need 2, then a second class compliant usb cable is an option. OR you could offer 2 ports on a single midi cable with a proprietary driver (for the very few who actually need 2 ports).


Proprietary drivers have the bad habit of not being updated when the manufacturer goes out of business or when it has no more economic interest to support an old out of production product. As a matter of fact, products tend to out live their proprietary drivers.
And the world is full of perfectly usable devices whose drivers have been only updated to, say, Windows XP. And hence they must be scraped because they are useless on modern PCs.


To make things worse, Yamaha does NOT provide any driver for Android devices, which represent the vast majority of mobile devices out there, and certainly the future.

You can probably sell a 4k€ device to a ~70 years old wealthy man, asking him to install a 1990s proprietary driver in his old fashioned desktop PC. If you want to sell something to a millennial, to start with you cannot ask 4k€, and then it must connect hassle free to his smartphone.

If you fail to do that you are out of business. Period. And things happen fast (before 2008 the smartphone did not even exist!!). And if in 2020 you are still selling a product designed in the 1990s then there is a problem.

It is hard to be a "brick & mortar" XX century company selling electronic devices in a market where software, web, and interconnections are the king. The gigantic failure Yamaha incurred with their e-commerce web site when they wanted to offer a free download of their expansion packs says it all.

In any "digital" company the responsible of such an epic failure would have been court-martialed on the spot, and directly sent to the firing squad. But if you are brick & mortar you do not even see the failure, and hence do not even feel the need to apologize for that.

[groovyband.live]

Both midi ports are fully usable at the same time with 128 voice polyphony on each port.

Unfortunately no.

Midi Port 2 is limited and does NOT recognize the full range of midi commands. For example it does NOT recognize midi Master Volume (which is not a secondary command). And there are other limitations too, that now we do not even remember in detail, since we gave it up long ago, and stick with Port 1 only.

We also doubt you have 128 voice polyphony for EACH port.

The theoretical Genos' 256 notes polyphony, if we remember correctly, is partitioned according to the the sound you are using:

128 notes for the sound samples from factory ROM (= when you use the sounds delivered by default with the Genos)
128 notes for the sound samples installed with expansion packs

If you do not install or use any expansion voice then you are stuck with 128 notes polyphony (as every PSR and Tyros). If you use a factory style then you are stuck with 128 notes polyphony.

Actually the cases where you can use more than 128 notes of polyphony are pretty limited.

Yet another limitation of Yamaha architecture that is frankly disappointing. Better not to dig too deeply and stay ignorant (in the original Latin significance --> not knowing), otherwise you only get frustrations and delusions.

[Genos!]

I am more than happy in my ignorance then.

I am only using simple standards like key-on velocities, and I don't require the use of aftertouch. I bought the Genos for its stock sounds from factory ROM and its Saxes, Trumpets, Brass in particular and its revo Drums.

I do realize that voices does not equal notes, but I have not noticed any dropouts.

At the same time I am running a Casio WK-3700, a Korg TritonLE, a Roland FA-08, with the Yamaha Genos. And I also have some simpler modules like the Axon II, and JV-1010.

Every company brings a little bit to the mix. It may be the same GM instruments, but they all sound different. However, when mixed properly they sound full and real. Of course this takes a lot of processing and time to set up properly, but I find it worth it. Of course I do substitute those voices with the best the keyboards have to offer based on the arrangement at hand and I rarely stick to GM voices, but they are a starting point.

I use a lot of hardware to get away as far as I can from latency. The VSTs I use, and they are used quite a bit, can tax my PC quite heavily. I have a lot of latency when using VSTs and more trouble with dropouts there than anywhere else.

When I do have something completely the way I want it, I then move everything from midi to audio, I finalize the mix. When I have a full album, I will then master the album.

I feel that the Genos has added a realism to "the band/orchestra" that I previously didn't have.

Again, I am using both Genos midi ports at the same time without having any issues.

I am not using the arranger as an arranger at all at this point, but my wife is learning to use it as such and I help her as she needs it.

We are both still ecstatic with our 5-grand purchase, and I can say that we would probably do the same thing again over if given the chance. We would buy the Genos again, given what is currently available.

So yes, so far we are 100% happy with our Genos and what it does for us. What it doesn't do we have or have not really noticed. The fact that it doesn't make us instant coffee or a proper cup of tea hasn't bothered us.

I guess, of course, there are shortcomings with everything. But, if I was to spend my time focusing on the shortcomings I wouldn't get much done. I do believe that positive input and critical reviews have their place, but I leave that mostly up to the engineers, designers, and reviewers and quality control.

When you have a company (life) to run you can only do so much effectively.

Overall I am extremely satisfied.

[EileenL]

Well said,
  I  know lots of people that are very well satisfied with there purchase and would not change it for the world. Why do we always get someone full of negativity who thinks there programs are better trying to push them. There is a place on here for that in the Buy and Sell section.

[Dromeus]

If you fail to do that you are out of business. Period. And things happen fast

Well, I must say I've heard and read statements like this concerning the Yamaha arranger business strategy for 20+ years. Yamaha is still in business. Period  .

Reminds me of the late eighties, when all the "experts" seemed to be convinced that RISC processors are the future and Intel's business will go down rapidly. Then I heard this invited speaker at an IBM conference emphasizing "This will be an Intel world for a very long time". You all know what happened  .

Anyway... @Eileen: I think groovyband has some points here and there and it is important to exchange our thoughts. This is what a forum is all about IMHO. We all enjoy to sit down and play, but for doing this we don't need a forum, do we?

[Gunnar Jonny]

Well said,
  I  know lots of people that are very well satisfied with there purchase and would not change it for the world.

Do that mean that all developement and changes is no good and should not happen?
They probably was really happy with T1 or other models as well, so why buy a new model if not 'change it for the world'? 🤔

Myself, I'll rather move forward and wish programfixes, new additions and new technology welcome, than get stuck in the past. 🎵🎹🎵

[EileenL]

Yes I always believe in keeping up with the latest technology and getting a new keyboard as they advance. I enjoy having new features onboard to make playing more interesting.
  What I don't like is people coming onto threads and running keyboards down and trying to push there own programs telling us that this is cheap enough to put in and that should have been done and we are all fools for giving Yamaha our money. Surly this helps no one.

[Lee Batchelor]

I had a lot of things go wrong after the Windows 10 update (2004). They mainly involved drivers that refused to link or something similar. About half of my USB ports failed to work. This has been traced back to this latest update. The update even destroyed by BIOS settings!!! I had to go in and fix those myself. The update also turned on the power save mode. I wish Microsoft would stop trying to protect me with updates that do nothing but cause grief. It took me a whole day before I could record in Cubase again.

I have learned that when all's well before a Windows update and then something is amiss, you can almost always blame the Microsoft geniuses.

[wersianer]

Lee Batchelor, finally someone who publishes the truth. What you here described corresponds to my experiences. Since the Windows 10 update in 1909 and 2004 (hope for improvement!) I can no longer receive e-mails via Outlook. Nothing was changed in the settings. As soon as I restore a backup, it works again. Now I am forced to turn off the updates so that I can receive my e-mails. My request in the Microsoft community was deleted instead of being answered. How sick is that?

[jwyvern]

Are your emails primarily gmail?
If so you may need to go to  settings in your gmail account to accept "less secure" emails. This came in recently when I was suddenly deprived of emails with no warning. After searching to find the likely cause I decided to accept the above at this time (rather than the alternative which was to change to a more secure/ complicated login method).

John

[wersianer]

No, John, thanks for the hint, but I get the email from GMX. It now works well under Windows 10 Version 1803. So far, no one has been able to tell me why this no longer works after an update. I've had Microsoft operating systems for decades, but I've never had anything like it in the past.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I just use the old windows live mail . still works a treat.
I disabled Edge as i run Firefox  and also stopped Edge from running in the background.
I also use two computers
One for general Internet and the other for music solely but linked for updates only.
When working on the music side ,I disable Norton and the Internet to stop any maybe glitches.
Also take a system Image of your drives , so that you can always go back if the need arises.
I stop all updates now on Win 10 until the max date runs out. Why? Let the Beta lovers Geek out the bugs!!! SAUSAGES!!
This way you can avoid the BUGs' and Alien Microsoft Interference.

All the Best
John

[wersianer]

Thanks John ... I'm getting on your track now (LOL).

[ClyLunt]

Hi...Evidently the driver is once in a while required regardless of whether the model is class-agreeable, and you ought to have the option to introduce the driver and use it with the console at any rate. I don't know why it's giving you issues, but rather on the off chance that all that works better without the driver, at that point it presumably does not merit attempting to analyze the issue.

[overover]

Hi ClyLunt,

welcome to the forum!

Hi...Evidently the driver is once in a while required regardless of whether the model is class-agreeable, and you ought to have the option to introduce the driver and use it with the console at any rate. I don't know why it's giving you issues, but rather on the off chance that all that works better without the driver, at that point it presumably does not merit attempting to analyze the issue.

Which post (and which user) are you referring to here exactly?

(Please use the "Quote" button to quote the original text in your post.)


Best regards,
Chris

[markstyles]

I was having an issue with GENOS loosing USB MIDI connection occasionally too.   It would be fine for hours, then connection was interrupted. 

I think I have solved it. The USB MIDI plug doesn't sit in solid on Genos MIDI jack..  I cut a thin sliver of paper, folded it in half, and hold it onto USB plug, as I insert into GENOS,  It keeps it tight.  I eventually switched to another USB MIDI cable, and things have been ok.

Time was decades ago, jacks and plugs on better Keyboards, was military spec.  They cost more, but are guarenteed to be exactly the size they are supposed to be.  By the 90's  keyboard makers, computer makers switched to cheaper hardware.  so some jacks/plugs are ever so slightly larger/smaller,  and it isn't a perfect connection.