Recording voice settings from PSR to Cubase

[dlbeaty]

For years I have struggled with this situation. Sometimes when I record a midi performance in Cubase it plays back the correct voices through the keyboard, but other times not. If I can get the correct patch name script for the instrument, I have to find which voice the keyboard used and locate it in the script, but the effects are not always right.

I have looked into all the settings in the keyboard and in the software, but sadly I do not understand enough about midi to even understand the manual. Anyone there with experience to help? The songs I am working on were recorded in the older Cubase VST 5.1.

Dan

[dlbeaty]

Does anyone know of a source for information on recording and editing Yamaha keyboard performances in Cubase or other software? I posted in the Cubase forums as well. The manuals of the software and the keyboards are full of information that is way over my head. I have a thick book on MIDI that reads like a science text book as well. Too much for me to process.

When what I am doing works, it works great. But then something changes, and I have to start all over again.

Dan

[Pino]

Just hold on in there Dan
There's a lot of guys here using Cubase,
You'll get you answer soon.

Pino

[Janus]

You have to look for a voicelist for cubase for your keyboard
You can also use the banknummers and programchange number for the missing voices
Enter them in the list editor for every track separate
Remove the wrong banknumbers and insert the right numbers
Like
Banknumber msb ....
Banknumber  lsb ...
Programchange number ...
You can find them in your manuel
Also in the display from your keyboard
set it to display banknummers and progamchange numbers

Gr.Jan

[dlbeaty]

You have to look for a voicelist for cubase for your keyboard
You can also use the banknummers and programchange number for the missing voices
Enter them in the list editor for every track separate
Remove the wrong banknumbers and insert the right numbers
Like
Banknumber msb ....
Banknumber  lsb ...
Programchange number ...
You can find them in your manuel
Also in the display from your keyboard
set it to display banknummers and progamchange numbers

Gr.Jan

Thanks Jan,

This much i have figured out. However the other settings, like volume, effects, etc are lost as soon as I enter the information. What puzzles me is that some of the time every detail is saved and played back correctly in the keyboard. Other times some of the voices are correct and others are not. Cubase does save the channel numbers used, and that helps to match the instruments.

Here is what I found in a separate document, "Computer Related Operations."

"Transmitting the Panel Settings (Initial Send)
By executing this before recording, you can record the panel settings to the beginning of the Song data. This
ensures that the proper and expected sounds will be produced when the recorded Song plays back."

My PSR-730 had this initial send option in the MIDI menu, but I could find it nowhere in the s775 Manual or in the keyboard settings. Could it be there under another name?

This function is a wonderful option for me when it works. I also want to understand more about what is going on behind the scenes for more control. There is the learning curve.

Dan

[overover]

Hi Dan,

PSR-S, -SX, Tyros models and Genos do NOT have a "Initial Send" feature to transmit the current settings via MIDI. One reason for this may be that these models have TWO (2) internal MIDI Ports (16 Channels * 2 for both Receive and Transmit).


I recommend to do the following:

First use the internal MIDI Recorder of your S775 and save your preliminary Song as a MIDI file (.mid) on a USB stick. Then connect the USB stick to the computer and import the MIDI file into Cubase. If you should have all Channels in one Track now, you have to "dissolve" this Track into separate Channels first:

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_artist/v9/en/cubase_nuendo/topics/midi_processing/midi_processing_parts_into_separate_channels_dissolving_t.html


Your new Cubase project will contain the (most important) XG Reset Sy*** message, and in the first bar of each Track you will have all needed Voice and Effect settings (multiple Controller events and a Program Change event).

Now you can edit all MIDI Data and/or record additional Tracks in Cubase. Note: If you have more than one Track per Channel, it is sufficient if the Initialization Data is in ONE of these tracks (in the first bar),

If you create a Track on a new (previously unused) Channel, you either have to copy (and change accordingly) the Initialization Data of another Channel into the first bar of the new Track, or (better) you simply record another, short MIDI file directly on the S775 (e.g. just a single note) with the desired Voice/Effect settings. You then import this file into your Cubase project and copy the Initialization Data of the relevant Channel into the desired Track.

Ideally, you already record the Voice settings on the S775 to the "correct" MIDI Channel (on which you will later need these settings in Cubase). Instead of "MIDI Quick Recording" (whereby the Keyboard Parts Right1/2 and Left are always recorded on certain Channels that cannot be changed), you can also work with "MIDI Multi Recording". Here you can specify exactly on which MIDI Channel, e.g. Right1 should be recorded.

Note: Some Effect settings are Sy*** messages! Usually Sy*** are NOT Channel-related. But some Sy***, mostly those of Insert Effects, ARE Channel-related. So it is best NOT to change the MIDI Channel afterwards when using an Insert Effect.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[dlbeaty]

Chris,

I do appreciate your taking the time to give the information. I am disappointed that a new keyboard would have a feature of convenience removed to make more work for me. I have already done what you suggested, recording to the usb stick and importing it to Cubase. It would be better to have everything syncronized together, but I can do it this way. There were some problems when I recorded to the usb stick, but that could have been for another reason.

What I still cannot understand is why sometimes the recording plays back perfectly with out initializing in the keyboard.

Dan

Hi Dan,

PSR-S, -SX, Tyros models and Genos do NOT have a "Initial Send" feature to transmit the current settings via MIDI. One reason for this may be that these models have TWO (2) internal MIDI Ports (16 Channels * 2 for both Receive and Transmit).


I recommend to do the following:

First use the internal MIDI Recorder of your S775 and save your preliminary Song as a MIDI file (.mid) on a USB stick. Then connect the USB stick to the computer and import the MIDI file into Cubase. If you should have all Channels in one Track now, you have to "dissolve" this Track into separate Channels first:

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_artist/v9/en/cubase_nuendo/topics/midi_processing/midi_processing_parts_into_separate_channels_dissolving_t.html


Your new Cubase project will contain the (most important) XG Reset Sy*** message, and in the first bar of each Track you will have all needed Voice and Effect settings (multiple Controller events and a Program Change event).

Now you can edit all MIDI Data and/or record additional Tracks in Cubase. Note: If you have more than one Track per Channel, it is sufficient if the Initialization Data is in ONE of these tracks (in the first bar),

If you create a Track on a new (previously unused) Channel, you either have to copy (and change accordingly) the Initialization Data of another Channel into the first bar of the new Track, or (better) you simply record another, short MIDI file directly on the S775 (e.g. just a single note) with the desired Voice/Effect settings. You then import this file into your Cubase project and copy the Initialization Data of the relevant Channel into the desired Track.

Ideally, you already record the Voice settings on the S775 to the "correct" MIDI Channel (on which you will later need these settings in Cubase). Instead of "MIDI Quick Recording" (whereby the Keyboard Parts Right1/2 and Left are always recorded on certain Channels that cannot be changed), you can also work with "MIDI Multi Recording". Here you can specify exactly on which MIDI Channel, e.g. Right1 should be recorded.

Note: Some Effect settings are Sy*** messages! Usually Sy*** are NOT Channel-related. But some Sy***, mostly those of Insert Effects, ARE Channel-related. So it is best NOT to change the MIDI Channel afterwards when using an Insert Effect.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[Toril S]

The problem recording to USB stick occurs from time to time. Usually the reason is that the USB stick is too slow, so the error message comes. It helps to have a dedicated USB stick for recording, without other data on it. As for the Cubase question, I see you have got answers. I can't help you there, as I use Audacity for some simple operations only.

[overover]

... What I still cannot understand is why sometimes the recording plays back perfectly with out initializing in the keyboard. ...

Hi Dan,

as long as you do not change the MIDI settings of the S775 (e.g. Voice and Effect settings) when playing back recorded MIDI notes from Cubase (and you are sending the MIDI Data from Cubase to the KEYBOARD Parts (MIDI Port 2) of the S775), you will have the same sound.

BUT usually for playback of MIDI data from Cubase you should use the SONG Parts of the S775: Select the MIDI Template "All Parts" on the S775 and  send all the Cubase Tracks to MIDI Port 1 of the S775. (Via USB-MIDI use the Port "Digital Workstation 1" of the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver.) If using an external MIDI interface(-cable), connect the MIDI Out of the interface to the DIN MIDI In jack of the S775.

I recommend you to analyze some commercial MIDI files in Cubase. A MIDI file must be programmed in such a way that it puts the keyboard in a well-defined state when the file starts. This means that the XG Reset command must be at the beginning of the file, and then (within the first bar) the Initialization commands for each channel used (and the necessary Sy*** messages for the desired Effect settings etc.). Otherwise, the Grand Piano voice would be played on each channel, which is set by the XG reset.


Best regards,
Chris

[overover]

The problem recording to USB stick occurs from time to time. Usually the reason is that the USB stick is too slow, so the error message comes. It helps to have a dedicated USB stick for recording, without other data on it. As for the Cubase question, I see you have got answers. I can't help you there, as I use Audacity for some simple operations only.

Hi Toril,

we are obviously talking from different things here:

The problems with a "too slow" USB stick usually occur when doing an Audio Recording (only). But in Dan's case it's about MIDI Recording  (where there should normally be no problems with USB sticks).


Best regards,
Chris

[dlbeaty]

Hi Dan,

as long as you do not change the MIDI settings of the S775 (e.g. Voice and Effect settings) when playing back recorded MIDI notes from Cubase (and you are sending the MIDI Data from Cubase to the KEYBOARD Parts (MIDI Port 2) of the S775), you will have the same sound.

BUT usually for playback of MIDI data from Cubase you should use the SONG Parts of the S775: Select the MIDI Template "All Parts" on the S775 and  send all the Cubase Tracks to MIDI Port 1 of the S775. (Via USB-MIDI use the Port "Digital Workstation 1" of the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver.) If using an external MIDI interface(-cable), connect the MIDI Out of the interface to the DIN MIDI In jack of the S775.

I recommend you to analyze some commercial MIDI files in Cubase. A MIDI file must be programmed in such a way that it puts the keyboard in a well-defined state when the file starts. This means that the XG Reset command must be at the beginning of the file, and then (within the first bar) the Initialization commands for each channel used (and the necessary Sy*** messages for the desired Effect settings etc.). Otherwise, the Grand Piano voice would be played on each channel, which is set by the XG reset.


Best regards,
Chris

Everything you are saying helps me to see that you might be able to help me more. But I might still need some clarification. I should say that I am using a  usb Tascam MIDI interface that gives me 2 ins and outs. I have Cubase MIDI through diabled. I am using MIDI cables to connect the number 1 port on both devices. I don't have any extra usb ports on my laptop to utilize port 2 on the s775.

I like to arrange the song in Cubase by playing the chords and recording what I would use to trigger the styles for the song. Then I can later decide when to switch from A to B, fills etc.  I have the keyboard set to receive the chords from Cubase. When I have settled on the style, key and tempo that I want. I set the keyboard to external clock and sync start.

At this point I can always record the audio output of the keyboard, but I might want to edit the the performance more in Cubase. So I play the chords from Cubase while recording the MIDI output of the S775. I can expand the file into all the channels used. As I said some of the time the sound is identical to the audio coming from the keyboard. Other times one or two of the instruments might be wrong. As soon as I try to reset one of the voices to match, strange things begin to happen. This makes me think there must be a setting in the software or the keyboard that could be changed.

Should the MIDI file generated to the usb stick be good to analyze? Is it possible to save one of the songs in the keyboard to usb to analyze? Pardon my ignorance but I do have the patience to learn, if anyone has the patience to teach me!

Dan

[dlbeaty]

Hi Dan,

PSR-S, -SX, Tyros models and Genos do NOT have a "Initial Send" feature to transmit the current settings via MIDI. One reason for this may be that these models have TWO (2) internal MIDI Ports (16 Channels * 2 for both Receive and Transmit).


Best regards,
Chris

Chris,

Why does having 2 internal MIDI ports eliminate the need for Initial Send?

[Toril S]

Chris, yes you are right😀

[dlbeaty]

In the Reference manual for the S775 and s975 under MIDI system settings on page on page 122 I found this:

3 MESSAGE SW (Message Switch)
 SYS/EX.
The "Tx" setting turns MIDI transmission of MIDI System Exclusive messages on or off. The "Rx" setting
turns MIDI reception and recognition of MIDI System Exclusive messages generated by external
equipment on or off.

[dlbeaty]

In the Reference manual for the S775 and s975 under MIDI system settings on page on page 122 I found this:

3 MESSAGE SW (Message Switch)
 SYS/EX.
The "Tx" setting turns MIDI transmission of MIDI System Exclusive messages on or off. The "Rx" setting
turns MIDI reception and recognition of MIDI System Exclusive messages generated by external
equipment on or off.

It turns out that there are some sys/ex messages in the Cubase file. I cannot interpret them. But the keyboard retains the proper voices and other details after recording until I turn it off.

Finally I am getting some idea of what Chris and others have explained. So If I save the beginning of the song recorded from the s775 to the usb stick and place it at the beginning of my Cubase song, the keyboard will be initialized every time for the recorded tracks I need.

Dan

[markstyles]

I use the following procedure with Logic Pro - be the same for any DAW..  I have a one measure 'count in'..   I select a Genos Style, that is NOT THE ONE I WANT TO USE'..  I put Logic into record,  During the count-in,  I select the STYLE I WANT TO USE..  This will record a bunch of syses, and cc events.

I usually record my chord changes (left hand) first into Logic, then send  this out and on Genos, assign this incoming MIDI track to 'CHORD DETECT' on Genos..  You can just record you whole performance in real time if you prefer.

I cut the sy*** out, in Logic.  The sy*** properly sets up Genos for a certain performance.  The problem is Genos does not send out MIDI information to set up DSP effects properly.  So you have to pay attention to that.. Say there was a crunchy rhthym guitar part.. You have to look that up in style, and assign a DSP to the proper midi channel, to get the same results. 

One thing to keep in mind, is that the style generator parts are send out on MIDI 9 - 16..  And when you call a style up, it sets DSPS to address the style generators.  If you are going for a live Genos song (no extra overdubs of additional parts,  You can assign the style generated parts, now in your DAW to be assigned to their respective 'style generated instruments.   In that case when you play back your DAW,  select the style manually before you play your DAW. 

I prefer to have all data necessary to reproduce song in my DAW, especially if I want to go back to that song months, years later. 

Normally what I do, is assign the first pass of style generated parts to the tracks normally used by GENOS.. 

CHORD DETECT TRACK - The beauty of having your chord detect track in your DAW, is this allows you to make unlimited style generated overdub parts.
Normally the four mains (4 different parts) are sufficient for most songs, But say you want the bass part to play between 8 different style generated parts..  You can overdub only the bass part, using different styles, selecting different mains, etc..

Now you can edit this note event lists in your DAW to create a much more sophisticated part.  Don't get too excited.  A bass part usually needs a coherency created thru repetition of rhythm and notes. Too much variation and the bass is just 'wandering' all over the place. But again, this will depend on your piece. 

Sometimes rather than record the selecting of the style.  I just record the music data..  I use what I call a 'SET-UP Control Sequence.. This is a short MIDI sequence I include at the beginning of each part, during my count-off.  This will set up all Genos instruments to the desired sound, so that the piece always has the right sounds. 

Control Sequence MIDI - https://app.box.com/s/z3ek8mcbkh9wekrd4eza

JPEG of control sequence - https://app.box.com/s/d4096mq0gb1uw4epp6dc

So after you have recorded your origin pass of song, go to each track and insert this short midi in front..  You HAVE TO SUBSTITUTE the proper MSB/LSB/PROG #'s  to make Genos call up proper part.  There are 127 MIDI events.. you can google the list, might even be in the reference manual.
Some synth companies chose to use the numbers 0 - 127, others chose to use 1 - 128..   

Check Genos owners manual to display the MSB/LSB/Prog numbers, these will then appear in the upper right hand corner of an instrument selected.  Use these values to replace the ones in the MIDI Control  Sequencer I have posted here.   If instrument comes out wrong,  LOWER the program # by 1, then it will be correct. 

This may appear overly complex on first reading, but after a while, it becomes pretty easy..  I created and have been using this method  since Tyros 3..  I'm sure many others have the same or similar procedure.

The main thing is to HAVE FUN - if this seems too complicated, or work, don't bother..  Believe me, I have spent a lot of times trying to work out procedures, or figure something else, and I can't and get frustrated, and then don't want to play music.

Find a routine that works for you

[dlbeaty]

Mark, thanks for the additional information. I am getting the idea little by little. I did notice that when a style registered program changes when going from A to B that it was recorded in Cubase. So changing at the beginning make sense.

Dan

I use the following procedure with Logic Pro - be the same for any DAW..  I have a one measure 'count in'..   I select a Genos Style, that is NOT THE ONE I WANT TO USE'..  I put Logic into record,  During the count-in,  I select the STYLE I WANT TO USE..  This will record a bunch of syses, and cc events.

I usually record my chord changes (left hand) first into Logic, then send  this out and on Genos, assign this incoming MIDI track to 'CHORD DETECT' on Genos..  You can just record you whole performance in real time if you prefer.