Genos and Mr Cubase

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
The perils of working or mixing a song from the Genos
I have just finished mixing two songs and I am taking my time this time as the mix learn curve is quite frustrating at times especially with the Genos.
I normally play a song through entirely in a few goes to get it right to keep the natural in it, rather than quantizing too much.
From there In Cubase i turn each track into a wave file and cut all the different parts the Right, 1,2 and 3 as they contain group parts and put and put  the different parts with program changes on different audio tracks.
As long as you cut bar to bar there is no problem in lining the parts up.
The thing  is not to take parts out before program changes or strange anomalies happen.
I am now finding this a good way to work with the Genos.
The great thing with Cubase is that you can do all the little nuances like velocity, volume ,pitchbends etc . Great for bending a Saxopnone once you get used to how much to get away with. Saving different stages is a must as i can go back if i mess up and i do that quite a bit being human..
I am getting used to mixing , doing the gain stageing first and then putting a reference track at the bottom of daw and using the Control room to compare my version with the real one.
This takes a lot of getting used to and now getting set up at 18 LUF's, about 6 to 8 db aproximately ready to do so called amateur mastering.
It takes me a long time to get to a point where i am happy with the mix as fiddling endlessly can happen. It is knowing when to stop and that is hard.
I like to share my experiences with you as all of this can be lengthy and frustrating at times with time just flying by like the quickening!!! .
What approaches do others take with Genos and Cubase as ideas's help.
I am totally self taught and i feel it at times.

All the best
John

[beykock]

Hi John :


I tried Cubase several times but I prefer Cakewalk by BandLab a lot more.
Wished Steinberg made a midi/audio DAW that is 100% suitable for Yamaha's arranger keyboards ... wishful thinking, I guess.

I remember you were very familiar with Sonar.
Nowadays this prog has been replaced by Cakewalk by BandLab and BandLab is updating Cakewalk regulary.
AND ... download is free of charge and absolutely legal.

Take care, Babette

[Dromeus]

Hi John

Like Babette I'm using Cakewalk, but my general workflow would not be different if I'd use Cubase.

The simpliest use case is to record me playing (use of styles/registrations) straight to Genos MIDI sequencer. This leaves room for replacing/overdubbing tracks or some very basic MIDI editing, as well as mixing using the onboard mixing console. Next step is to record the MIDI song to the Genos audio recorder. The DAW is then used for the final mastering only.

When I'm after more serious MIDI editing, I load the Genos MIDI file into the DAW. Again, next step is to bounce the tracks to a stereo sum. It could be done using the DAW, but remember that MIDI recordings from the Genos are sometimes far from being optimal, so some glitches may arise when re-playing the MIDI file from the DAW to the Genos. In that case it is better to load the MIDI file to the Genos sequencer. Final steps as above.

If I'm striving for more creative use of the power of a DAW, it comes at a cost. As you noted, be prapared to spend a lot of time. Roughly I'd do the following:

• Record the performance to the MIDI recorder.
• Put the MIDI file to the DAW.
• Do the necessary MIDI editing.
• Bounce each instrument as a "dry" signal to a single audio track; "dry" means to definitely turn off system effects (Reverb, Chorus) and maybe channel EQing; when it comes to insert effects it depends on the type of effects if I'd use the Genos effects or replace them using VST in the DAW; where it makes sense I bounce to a mono audio track, otherwise a stereo track is used.
• The drum track is split and bounced (again as a dry signal) to several audio tracks. At least the bass drum and the snare is bounced to a mono track, the remaining drum instruments may be bounced to a stereo track. It may pay off bouncing more drum instruments to individual tracks, it all depends on the music and what you want to achieve.
• Any Genos voice may be replaced by other sounds (e.g. VSTi).
• The final effects usage and mix is done in the DAW based on the dry audio tracks.
• Final mastering.

Yes, it's a lengthy process, you need to develop a lot of skills, and of course it may be frustrating at times. The results may be rewarding, and using your skills to produce some nice music is definetly fun.

Cheers, Michael

[Lee Batchelor]

Great topic, John. If there is one good thing that has come out of this Covid nonsense is the time it gives us away from the live stage to learn how to use the Genos with DAW software.

I'm using Cubase 10.5 Pro. I've used Cakewalk and it's very good too. The main difference as I see it between the two programs is, Cubase is designed from a sound engineer's point of view while Cakewalk is more from a musician's point of view. Hence, why a lot of people may prefer Cakewalk. There's no question that recording and mastering with any software is a life-long learning curve and a steep one at that.

I finally figured out how to record the Genos to Cubase. It works but is very cumbersome. I have also learned that while the voices on the Genos are stellar, they are still a "package deal." Yamaha has managed to get some great sounds out of relatively small memory packs, all of which are very suitable for live performance. No wonder the darn thing costs a fortune! Instead, I much prefer VST voices because each one can take advantage of enormous memory packs available on your computer and they are MUCH easier to render to audio. The word, render means, "Convert MIDI to audio." With a VST instrument, the rendering is done almost instantly by the DAW. A four minute track can be rendered from MIDI to audio in about five seconds, depending on how fast your computer CPU is. To render a Genos MIDI track to audio, it must be done one track at a time and in real time! I'm not sure if that is only a Cubase limitation. I've heard reports that Pro Tools can render external MIDI tracks just as fast as VST tracks. My first few recordings were done with the Genos drums. I too dissolve the drum tracks into one instrument per track for finer editing, and control of inserts and sends. Revo drums often occupy 15 tracks. You have to convert them to audio one track at a time and in real-time, so if you have a slow song at 70 BPM, it's a terribly boring task. Hence, why I use mainly VST instruments now. They sound far better and render to audio in seconds.

The Genos is an excellent MIDI controller. The only downside of using a 76 key controller is the labeling of the key numbers. What one manufacturer calls "C1" may be "C0 or "C2" by another. I don't know why they aren't consistent with the nomenclature because all full-size pianos have 88 keys. As far as I know, C2 is right under the Reg 3 button. That doesn't always hold true with some VSTs.

At any rate, it's a great time to be in music. The tools are very affordable despite what I mentioned. I think that even 15 to 20 years ago, what would have cost $100,000 to do, today costs about $5,000 or less. Now, if we can just squash this darn virus so we can all stop being prisoners in our own homes! No worries, Donny Trump has it all figured out .

[beykock]

Hi Guys :

Since you are DAW Experts I would be grateful if you could tell me what is the best VST for VOCAL audio Editing / Recording ?

It looks like it ain't easy to find the right / the best VST for Vocals ... anyway I did not find it up to now.

Plse advise. Thanks !

Babette
The Grateful

[Lee Batchelor]

Babette, I assume you're wondering which is the best "plugin" for shaping and editing your vocals? A VST generally refers to an instrument but it can also be effects software such as reverb, delay, doublers, etc. VST stands for Virtual Studio Technology. It is a general term that describes anything that is pure software. There is no hardware involved. A VST simply mimics hardware. More specifically, VSTi refers to VST software that mimics real instruments.

As for the term, "best" there are free plugins that may suit your needs. Prices vary for professional-level plugins. It all depends on what you're wanting to achieve. I've achieved amazing results with free plugins, while others were totally useless. Can you expand on your thoughts for vocals? The Genos has some interesting reverbs etc for vocals, but most DAW software has a selection of plugins that may suffice - even the free DAWs.

[beykock]

You are right, Lee. I mean a plugin.

I am looking for a pro vocal plugin that pro studio's are using.
Their reverb is mostly a lot better than ours, IMHO.

Maybe my wish is a bridge too far and this plugin might not be available for home players like me.

Best wishes, Babette

[Lee Batchelor]

Okay Babette, there are several free plugins for vocals. I would suggest doing a search and download the ones that sound best to you. Most of them have presets so you don't have to get involved with Room Size, Length, Wet/Dry mix, and other confusing parameters. I tend to just choose the preset that sounds best. Let us know what you find. You may stumble on one that is absolutely stellar that the rest of us have missed .

[KeyboardByBiggs]

You may stumble on one that is absolutely stellar that the rest of us have missed .

There are many stellar ones out there. Over the years I think I've used just about all of them, literally thousands of dollars of them. I've spent the money so you don't have to.

Out of all of them, there's one that always stands out to me. I've used it on many commercial projects.

Check out Chris Lord-Alge's "CLA Vocals" made by Waves. It's an entire high-end pro vocal chain in one plugin; eq, compression, reverb, delay, and stereo widening/sweetening.

It used to be around $1,000, but due to stiff competition over the last few years, you can now get it new for $60.

Here it is at my favorite vendor: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CLAVocals--waves-cla-vocals-plug-in

[Kokoriz]

Hi
The perils of working or mixing a song from the Genos
I have just finished mixing two songs and I am taking my time this time as the mix learn curve is quite frustrating at times especially with the Genos.
I normally play a song through entirely in a few goes to get it right to keep the natural in it, rather than quantizing too much.
From there In Cubase i turn each track into a wave file and cut all the different parts the Right, 1,2 and 3 as they contain group parts and put and put  the different parts with program changes on different audio tracks.
As long as you cut bar to bar there is no problem in lining the parts up.
The thing  is not to take parts out before program changes or strange anomalies happen.
I am now finding this a good way to work with the Genos.
The great thing with Cubase is that you can do all the little nuances like velocity, volume ,pitchbends etc . Great for bending a Saxopnone once you get used to how much to get away with. Saving different stages is a must as i can go back if i mess up and i do that quite a bit being human..
I am getting used to mixing , doing the gain stageing first and then putting a reference track at the bottom of daw and using the Control room to compare my version with the real one.
This takes a lot of getting used to and now getting set up at 18 LUF's, about 6 to 8 db aproximately ready to do so called amateur mastering.
It takes me a long time to get to a point where i am happy with the mix as fiddling endlessly can happen. It is knowing when to stop and that is hard.
I like to share my experiences with you as all of this can be lengthy and frustrating at times with time just flying by like the quickening!!! .
What approaches do others take with Genos and Cubase as ideas's help.
I am totally self taught and i feel it at times.

All the best
John

Whats the easiest way to hook up the genos to a computer? My audio interface (steinberg ur824) doesnt have a midi connection. Thank you!

[Genos!]

A USB printer cable will carry all midi data between the pc and the Genos.

[jugge]

Hi Jonn, This video tutorial helped me a lot on how to mix and master in Cubase - https://www.groove3.com/tutorials/Cubase-10-Mixing-Explained

Best regards
/Jugge

[overover]

Whats the easiest way to hook up the genos to a computer? My audio interface (steinberg ur824) doesnt have a midi connection. Thank you!

A USB printer cable will carry all midi data between the pc and the Genos.

Hi Kokoriz,

first connect the Genos to the Computer via a "USB type AB" cable (as mentioned by "Genos!" before). THEN install the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver (the right version for your computer!):

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/support/updates/index.html?c=keyboards&k=usb-midi


On the Genos, open the MIDI Setting and make sure to have activated one of the MIDI templates "All Parts" or "KBD & Style". The difference between these two templates is:

All Parts: The Keyboard Parts "Right 1, 2, 3" and "Left" are transmitted on the MIDI Channels 1, 2, 3 and 4, but ONLY if the respective Part on the Genos is switched ON.

KBD & STYLE: The Keyboard Parts "Right 1, 2, 3" are handled as "Upper" and transmitted on MIDI Channel 1. The "Left" Part is handled as "Lower" and transmitted on MIDI Channel 2. In this case (if you use "Upper" and "Lower" Parts), the Keyboard data is ALWAYS transmitted, even if the respective Keyboard Parts are switched OFF.


In your DAW on the Computer, normally use the MIDI Port 1 (of the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver) BOTH for MIDI Input (to record the incoming MIDI data from Genos) AND for MIDI Output (to send the Track data of your DAW project to the Genos).

Via USB-MIDI, the Genos can transmit on Port 1 only, but can receive both on Ports 1 & 2. You can go to "Transmit" or "Receive" Tab in the Genos MIDI Setting, and scroll down to find out which Parts transmitting / receiving on which Channels.

Of course, you can change all these routings, if needed. But Receive on Port 2 affects directly the Genos Keyboard Parts and Style Parts (on DIFFERENT CHANNELS, because Receive Channel 1 on Port 2 is reserved to control the complete Genos from an external Master Keyboard (via DIN MIDI B IN)). So, normally using of Port 2 with a DAW is NOT desired, since the MIDI signals coming from the DAW usually are routed to the SONG Parts of the Genos (= Port 1 by default, as mentioned before).

By the way: The internal SONG Parts (when you play back a MIDI file directly on the Genos) are transmitted via Port 2 by default. This means, if you want to RECORD these internal SONG Parts on your DAW on the Computer, you have to change the MIDI settings on Genos first (re-route the SONG Parts to the Channels 1 - 16 on Port 1). (The changed settings should be saved as a new User MIDI template.)

BUT normally you do not need the last mentioned, because it is much better to first make a MIDI recording in the Genos and then import this MIDI file into the DAW (e.g by using a USB stick).


P.S.
Please also refer to the section "MIDI Settings" in the Genos Reference Manual (starting with page 142). Especially see the picture "MIDI transmission/reception via the USB terminal, Wireless LAN, and MIDI terminals" on page 146. You can download the latest versions (g0) of the Genos Manual here:

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos/downloads.html#product-tabs


Hope this helps!


Best regards,
Chris

[Kokoriz]

Hi Kokoriz,

first connect the Genos to the Computer via a "USB type AB" cable (as mentioned by "Genos!" before). THEN install the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver (the right version for your computer!):

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/support/updates/index.html?c=keyboards&k=usb-midi


On the Genos, open the MIDI Setting and make sure to have activated one of the MIDI templates "All Parts" or "KBD & Style". The difference between these two templates is:

All Parts: The Keyboard Parts "Right 1, 2, 3" and "Left" are transmitted on the MIDI Channels 1, 2, 3 and 4, but ONLY if the respective Part on the Genos is switched ON.

KBD & STYLE: The Keyboard Parts "Right 1, 2, 3" are handled as "Upper" and transmitted on MIDI Channel 1. The "Left" Part is handled as "Lower" and transmitted on MIDI Channel 2. In this case (if you use "Upper" and "Lower" Parts), the Keyboard data is ALWAYS transmitted, even if the respective Keyboard Parts are switched OFF.


In your DAW on the Computer, normally use the MIDI Port 1 (of the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver) BOTH for MIDI Input (to record the incoming MIDI data from Genos) AND for MIDI Output (to send the Track data of your DAW project to the Genos).

Via USB-MIDI, the Genos can transmit on Port 1 only, but can receive both on Ports 1 & 2. You can go to "Transmit" or "Receive" Tab in the Genos MIDI Setting, and scroll down to find out which Parts transmitting / receiving on which Channels.

Of course, you can change all these routings, if needed. But Receive on Port 2 affects directly the Genos Keyboard Parts and Style Parts (on DIFFERENT CHANNELS, because Receive Channel 1 on Port 2 is reserved to control the complete Genos from an external Master Keyboard (via DIN MIDI B IN)). So, normally using of Port 2 with a DAW is NOT desired, since the MIDI signals coming from the DAW usually are routed to the SONG Parts of the Genos (= Port 1 by default, as mentioned before).

By the way: The internal SONG Parts (when you play back a MIDI file directly on the Genos) are transmitted via Port 2 by default. This means, if you want to RECORD these internal SONG Parts on your DAW on the Computer, you have to change the MIDI settings on Genos first (re-route the SONG Parts to the Channels 1 - 16 on Port 1). (The changed settings should be saved as a new User MIDI template.)

BUT normally you do not need the last mentioned, because it is much better to first make a MIDI recording in the Genos and then import this MIDI file into the DAW (e.g by using a USB stick).


P.S.
Please also refer to the section "MIDI Settings" in the Genos Reference Manual (starting with page 142). Especially see the picture "MIDI transmission/reception via the USB terminal, Wireless LAN, and MIDI terminals" on page 146. You can download the latest versions (g0) of the Genos Manual here:

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos/downloads.html#product-tabs


Hope this helps!


Best regards,
Chris

Thank you Chris! That is a big help. All I need now is a midi cable and probably going to order one of off amazon. Thank you and stay safe!

[overover]

Thank you Chris! That is a big help. All I need now is a midi cable and probably going to order one of off amazon. Thank you and stay safe!

Thanks for your quick feedback, Kokoriz!

"As a precaution" the following note again: You need above all a "normal" USB cable, as it e.g. is also used to connect the Computer to a Printer. (Usually you have such a cable "lying around" at home anyway.)


It is only important that the cable has a USB 2.0 specification (which almost all USB cables have today). You only need special DIN-MIDI cables (2 pieces) if you have an external MIDI interface that has 5-pin DIN-MIDI sockets.

In principle, however, the connection via USB-MIDI is more preferable: First, you only need ONE cable here, and the data transmission is (at least in theory) even faster than via DIN-MIDI.

The only reason to work with DIN-MIDI is if you want to connect an external MIDI device like a Master Keyboard or a Sound Module that has DIN-MIDI sockets, or if you "absolutely" want to TRANSMIT via MIDI Port 2.


Best regards,
Chris

[fantomx2019]

The Keyboard Parts "Right 1, 2, 3" and "Left" are transmitted on the MIDI Channels 1, 2, 3 and 4, but ONLY if the respective Part on the Genos is switched ON.

I work in cubase from 1999 so I have some skills. And I work a lot.

1. The channels are wrong.
ch 1 is full keyboard. 2 is R1, 3 is R2 , 4 is R3 , 5 is Lower.
Style is on Digital Workstation 1 usb midi or MIDI A, Song is on Digital Workstation 2 usb midi. Or MIDI B.
Later edit:
Style has those channels
9 Rhythm 1
10 Rhythm 2
11 Bass
12 Chord 1
13 Chord 2
14 Pad
15 Phraze 1
16 Phraze 2.

BUT !!!!!
If you are working style in Cubase, there are NO RULES.
meaning.
You may set Rhythm 1 as an instrument, on channel 1, Bass on Channel 2. Whatever.
And after export, thru a CASM editor, you may alocate each channel as you wanted, defining what it is.
Let´s say on CH1 you got a bass that works for CMAJ , on CH2 a bass that goes only for Cmin, on CH3 a bass that goes only for 7th.
In a casm editor all those channel will be asigned as MAJ, min, 7th, BUT after exporting as STYLE, Genos will understand and all will be played on CH11 BASS, but with MAJ, min, 7th as sequenced.

2. Working on DAW, is supposed to have Genos as Master Keybord MIDI, with Genos set as Sound Module, meaning MIDI PAGE > Local Control > everything has no check mark, everything will be thru midi.

3. The easiest way to insert a program change , is MIDI DEVICE MANAGER.
There are many posibilities. Even to program your own packs inside. I will repost attaching the XML I made for Genos, with many controls integrated.
And working with songs, you should remember that by default Genos sets reverb on 1-16 ch at 40. So you may have to adjust that.

4.You may even record a style, as whole , and set Genos as MIDI CLOCK SLAVE, and send the tempo from Cubase.
Make a new midi track, be carefull NOT TO have the OUTPUT Genos too (you will get a midi loop), set the midi channel as "any", and play Cubase a little before the measure, so it can send clock.
Rec the style, with all you may sing, stop.
Set track´s midi output now on Genos, and from midi menu, click on DISOLVE part.
It will spread all the channels on separate tracks.
There you will see R1 is on midi 2 channel.

5. Another way of inserting MSB/LSB/PC is recording it.
Make another midi track set on the same channel you want to add the PC, and set it on solo.
Go to the end of song, and before recording go on the song channel you want to send PC, open the instrument list , and wait. Hit record, and then press on the instrument you want to send.
After recording , in cubase, select the recorded part, open List Midi , and you will see in the list the MSB, LSB, PC.
Adjust the measure to move them where you want.



Please ask what ever you need, I will respond as soon as I can.

[Dromeus]

1. The channels are wrong.
ch 1 is full keyboard. 2 is R1, 3 is R2 , 4 is R3 , 5 is Lower.
Style is on Digital Workstation 1 usb midi or MIDI A, Song is on Digital Workstation 2 usb midi. Or MIDI B.

Well, nope. Chris was talking about transmission from Genos, so he is absolutely correct. The channel mapping you mention is obviously about receiving MIDI events.

BTW you can change the channel to parts mapping freely in the Genos MIDI Setup.

There was no mentioning of recording styles in this thread, which is a special case. Channel mapping within the CASM section does not apply if the goal is to produce a song using a DAW and Genos as a sound module.

[overover]

Well, nope. Chris was talking about transmission from Genos, so he is absolutely correct. The channel mapping you mention is obviously about receiving MIDI events.

BTW you can change the channel to parts mapping freely in the Genos MIDI Setup.

There was no mentioning of recording styles in this thread, which is a special case. Channel mapping within the CASM section does not apply if the goal is to produce a song using a DAW and Genos as a sound module.

Thank you, Michael!

All the best,
Chris(tian)