Band-in-a-box and other music software

[markstyles]

from  rikkisbears

Quote from: markstyles on Yesterday at 02:46:19 PM

The only other software I use regularly (since the 90's) is Band-In-A-Box.  I primarily use it to work out Chord progressions, While many of their styles, are not to my taste, some parts generated are workable.  But it is ace at constructing a chord progression, trying a ton of variations, chord substitutions, etc.

Hi Mark,
sorry for going off topic, but do you use the included Real Band software at all for generating biab style tracks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi....  I thought it better to make this a new thread..

I have used BIAB since 92 or so.   I had to do 20 nursery rhymes, with vocalists, each song in a different style in 30 days.   Out of desperation, I bought BIAB.   I had also been composing music for music libraries..  Imagine my suprise when I heard fragments of BIAB melody generator.  I used BIAB, to start the song, but added/modified parts to it.   In those early days BIAB was only MIDI.  I didn't pay attention to or ever use the real tracks, until recently when I updated to 2019 BIAB..   I must say some of the guitar riffing,are quite well  and can really blend into a piece. I love it's chord building ability.
I sometimes let it generate chords, auto substitute chords, re-harmonize (that one I'm still working with).  But it's quite good for building the chords of your piece. You can start with slow chord changes, interject a measure of chords every 1/4 note, substitute much more sophisticated chords.. etc.  When I've done that.  I pick the 'church' style, it gives you full legato chords, which you then put in your DAW and use as the 'chord detect' track for Genos.   If after laying a few tracks, you decide there are some 'wrong' chords, you go back to BIAB and fix and re-generate.  Put into Logic.  Maybe fix a few notes in the measured you've changed chords, and it's a fraction of the time spent.  I think the GREAT think about Band-in-a-Box, is it is an incredible teaching tool.  I'm still learning more and more intricate details about music I never noticed when I was younger.   

Regarding real tracks, I certainly prefer the midi tracks cause I want to see what the instruments are doing.. Some of the real tracks, have reasonably accurate MIDI parts, some realtracks have no midi.  (It would have been a huge expense for them to add that).   But the quality of the audio, (and I have the mp3 quality, or whatever they call it) is sufficient.  I would guess they poured a major amount of money into this.  because even with the lower fidelity which is fine, they are impeccable records, also what is being played is top notch.  I generated one song, using all real tracks. Sounded great. 

Years ago, when I first bought Band-in-a-box, I felt sort of guilty, like I was somehow 'cheating'.  I have since changed my opinion about that. There are all these music packs, which are basically lego sets for music.  all different instrument parts harmonically related, that let you build a song.  I've tried a lot of the music software programs, orb composer, rapid composer, Synfire, etc

There is a company out now AIVA. That software rather frightens me..  because you really don't need to know anything about music. you pick emotional qualities. You can try the free demo out online. You set parameters, and the program generates a composition.  The results to me are mediocre, sometimes ok.  But I have no doubt as time progresses, the program will improve..  Producers of video, most likely will turn to that in the future.  You will be able to generate what sounds like a large orchestra, without paying a singe union wage. 

They are using a process not dissimilar to Cognitones Synfire.   I used that for about 2 years.. But it's program that would really require a 3-4 college semesters to be in control..  One feature it had which was stunning - was you fed it midi files..  It has a degree of AI in it.  Then you could later generate a piece which sounded like that person.  I found some Chick Corea, solo piano parts in midi.  Once I created the library for it.  it was amazing what you could do.  This program will take any chords, any melody any key, any tempo, even if the components are all in different keys, tempos, and generate music that integrates well.  But is was pretty expensive, very hard to learn.  I gave up after two years. All I ever came up with was 'happy accidents' or stuff that didn't sound that great.  The Yamaha arrangers, far simpler in nature, are great at providing 'immediate gratification', which is very important for musicians.

The AIVA system of music is more complex. I believe they have their programmers who are also accomplished musicians, gradually adding more and more code, so that you specify your parameters, and it generates music.  I didn't feel 'connected' with it.  And I certainly didn't feel like I could 'own' the music I made. The AIVA system can get quite expensive, and they seem vague to me about the copyright of the music produced.  When I started  playing music as a boy,  if you didn't have perfect pitch, you had to slow the record down, pick out the notes, transpose the key back up to the right tempo. etc. 

I remember when DJ's start producing records starting in the 80's or so.  They were sampling different records, laying them on top of each other, etc.  The great ones, could have 3 turntables going. 
No they weren't playing the parts, but it certainly took a talent to do what they did, even though they knew no scales, theory, etc, etc.

But at this point, it's every musician for himself/herself.   If you can make music with an application or device,  the end listener doesn't care how you did it. .

Regarding Band in a box  If you sprang for the 'hi-fidelity' BIAB real tracks.. Even the regular real tracks are good enough. considering everyone reduces them to mp3 and earbuds. you can make a lot of serious music.  And as good as technology is getting with 'modeling' MODO drums, MODO Bass by IK, Mozdartt pianos (have those),  there is a certain 'magic' in the real recording of actual musicians.

I fooled around with BIAB's real tracks more, got a few stellar performances, other songs, I wrote, the riffs, didn't seem to gel as well..  The drums seemed the most compatible with a wide variety of styles.

As I mentioned before,  I really like to see the midi performance of parts, because I study, and later I can write or cop riffs in that style.  Where as I don't have perfect pitch, or even a great ear, It takes a number of tries for me to figure out an exact riff. Funny people might not be able to play a part, but they can sing it.  That means part of your brain knows the exact pitch, but can't relate it to your fingers.

I've met 3 perfect pitch players, who could hear something and play, it immediately, even if long and complicated.   Someone asked Jimi hendrix how he could play guitar with his teeth, behind his back, under his legs, either left of right handed.  He responded something like 'once I heard the notes in my brain, I never had to think of what muscles to move to duplicate or play what I imagined.  It was an 'invisible process' to me. 

The bottom line with music is.  It is something anyone can appreciate, and almost everyone can do to some degree.  Whether, you are a brilliant virtuoso, or a clunker is not as important as you feeling satisfaction at doing it. 

[rikkisbears]

Hi Mark,
I've had mine since about 1990 also, and must admit I don't use it a great deal either.

I update it every couple of years or so, sometimes fully with all the audio tracks , sometimes just the program itself.
This year I just updated the program.

I used to create the odd style for my korgs from the biab midifile styles, just for the fun of it.

Reason I asked whether you use Real Band it generates biab style tracks individually.

Option.
One could load a midifile either a gm midifile or a song created on a keyboard and substitute or add biab tracks.

So just say you had a midifile and the drum track was really bad, you could find a similar type of audio drum track and substitute it.

Guitar tracks in some of the early files used to be pretty bad too, again one could substitute.

When you load a midifile into Real Band it guesses the chords, sometimes they need adjusting. Then when you pick your biab track it generates it and follows the chord progression.

Quite interesting how one can work in conjunction with the other.

[markstyles]

I would consider substituting some real track parts.  I would put them in a DAW and probably thin them down a bit.  I thought the comping electric guitar was pretty decent.  The player threw in some interesting little motifs.  There was also a irish style with a decent cello..  I found it once, now can't find it a again.   The drums may work too, because they don't sound big.  Some songs, you might want some drums in the background but not calling too much attention to themself.

The program is a bit overwhelming, cause there is so much to it.   master tracks, studies, solo tracks, etc. I just use certain aspects of it.  It's another tool to use.  I do the same, I update it, then go 2-3 years before updating again..

[rikkisbears]

Hi Mark,
Do you use any of the biab  midi styles with a Yamaha keyboard?

I've only ever used my Korgs or soft synths and never had a problem.

The drums on my sx900 aren't playing back correctly . Guessing might have  something to do with xg drum mapping,
or I am using an incorrect setting.

[markstyles]

Yes sometimes..  Biab occasionally comes up with interesting melodies..  But after using the program a lot, you can tell when a melody is 'seeded' by something.. Or the melody is somewhat similar. 

Once in a while a solo might be interesting.  I generally put it to generate 90% of the time.  I cut, paste, slide solo's around, having to manually fix them to fit the current chords,, Sometimes a part inspires me to create a more polished version of a generated one. Like I do with Genos,  I might generate a few bass parts, cut up to one bar chunks. and randomly select track 1,2,3.  When I come across a motif, part that I like.  I work on polishing that, moving the riff around and messaging notes. 

A easy visual guide is to use BIAB' church style that generates a midi track with full legato chords.  I put this into my DAW and use that for Genos Chord detect track.

I then copy the chord detect track.   I select a one one range.  (if Key of song is in C,  keep the one octave.  any notes above the one octave, highlight and drag down one octave. Any notes below the one octave range, highlight and transpose up one octave.   Now you will have a sometimes dense series of notes all within one octave range.   I drag this one octave, up an octave, paste, go up another octave paste, then go one octave below the original octave paste, repeat.

So now you end up with a very dense bunch of notes that fit in a 6, 7 octave range.  Highlight all of it, make a minimum duration.  So notes occur only when the chord detect track changes chords. Highlight the whole mess and MUTE

I call this my Chord Reverence track.  As I play parts or import them into the song.  I highlight both by chord reference track, and my current track I'm working on.
Now it is much easier to slide notes to a position where they are not clashing.   Don't forget passing tones, Notes that don't land exactly on 1,3,5, 6, or 7.   I may move but often just lower their velocity and shorten duration.  Don't be afraid to add 'passing' or clashing notes.  Works better if they are an octave or two above the octave where comping chords are.

If you have a couple of 'comping tracks, (just basically chords, playing a rhythm.  you can periodically take out some notes on one track, like drop, any harmonically related note, and have the other instrument play it.  So the comping parts, independently sound a bit thin, but when both play creates intrest.   

John Lennon originally knew ukele chords. So sometimes he would play only 3 or 4 notes of the chord, in a lower register.  George would compliment it with playing the notes John was skipping..  Many bands with two gituarists started to use a similar.  It makes a big, sound but is not 'cluttered'. 

I sometimes use parts created by BIAB - I like to modify them, or use as a reference and try to play myself, or create in piano roll or scoring page.

[Graham UK]

BIAB does the best clean lead sheet printouts of any other software.

I use Midi Files to make my sheets, first trimming in Notation Composer then Importing chords into BIAB to Print Lead Sheet.

[rikkisbears]

Hi guys,
interesting what others are using the program for. It's so versatile. Going to try and spend a bit more time on it this year.

Thank you.