Panel sustain and pedal sustain - can I modify?

[Toril S]

Hello friends!
I sometimes use the panel sustain on piano voices, and it gives the piano a soft touch without muddling up the sound. But the pedal sustain is much stronger, and holding down the pedal for some measures only makes the tones sound on top of each other, and the effect is too much. Is there a way to modify pedal sustain to be more like panel sustain? I pushed direct access and the pedal, but can't find a way to do this.

[mikf]

Toril
I know this is not a direct answer to your question, but you have to 'work' the sustain pedal to get a good effect. Piano players do this intuitively, but you can learn.
Mike

[jwyvern]

Hi Toril,
The pedal is either on or off and it's use is intended to be intermittent. Use it when it is needed to give the effect but do not keep the pedal on or everything turns to mush. Release it at appropriate times, then apply it again depending on the "feeling" of the music. If playing swing or jazzy stuff try depressing and releasing in time with the beat at first to start to get the hang of it.

John

[Joe H]

You would think Yamaha would have added support for half-damper on the Tyros for the price.

Joe H

[Toril S]

Thanks, Mike, John and Joe H Yes, half-damper must be what I am after. And guys, I know I am not all that good with the sustain pedal yet, but I am practicing! I neglected the pedal stuff for too long, now it is pay back time, I have cramps in the hip and a sore back, but having a lot of fun

[Janus]

There is a simple rule
release the pedal by every chord change
To keep the harmonie clean

[Toril S]

Thanks, Janus😀😀

[jwyvern]

On Genos instead of assigning the pedal to Full sustain you can assign it to Panel Sustain, and you can then edit in the degree of sustain you want for each voice, (a sort of Yamaha custom "quick fix half" sustain) . It is not quite the same because releasing the pedal does not turn off the effect, you have to push the pedal each time you need to toggle it on or off.
I can't remember if Tyros let's you do this.
John

[Toril S]

Thanks John! 😀

[mikf]

I don't think half pedaling is what you want. It's a very advanced technique that is quite hard to master and not actually used much by most pianists. On an acoustic piano you are using feel to detect the position of the dampers. The effect is subtle and really only useful in some classical pieces. It is different from just good sustain pedal control which is what you need to develop. Working the pedal with chord changes should become second nature after a while.
Mike

[Janus]

I don't think half pedaling is what you want. It's a very advanced technique that is quite hard to master and not actually used much by most pianists. On an acoustic piano you are using feel to detect the position of the dampers. The effect is subtle and really only useful in some classical pieces. It is different from just good sustain pedal control which is what you need to develop. Working the pedal with chord changes should become second nature after a while.
Mike

Yes it is the feel
A little overflow from the chord gives a smooth effect

[Toril S]

What I was after was a sustain similar, or even a little lighter then the sustain we get when pressing the panel sustain button. Just to give the piano voice life and reverb, so I could play a part just holding down the sustain pedal. I can turn panel sustain on and off with registrations, but I was looking for a quick fix. Lazy me!

[jwyvern]

Just to give the piano voice life and reverb, so I could play a part just holding down the sustain pedal. I can turn panel sustain on and off with registrations, but I was looking for a quick fix.

You set reverb separately via Voice Set (or Mixing Console). Usually raising it above default values helps.
As said in other posts you "can" use pedal sustain but have to work with it.
If panel sustain works for you in registrations  and laziness (your description! ) is key       that solution seems to fit.
You might still find it to be possible to turn PS on and off via the pedal though, as I described in previous post provided Tyros gives you that facility.
The amount of sustain you get with panel sustain can be customised for each voice by going to Voice Set then either saving it to a user voice file, or saving within the registration or OTS.
John

[Joe H]

Thanks, Mike, John and Joe H Yes, half-damper must be what I am after...

I don't believe the half-damper pedal is supported even in the Tyros 5.  It's a variable sustain pedal.  It's more difficult than the foot switch sustain (On/Off) I think you just need to practice how to use the sustain pedal.  Some valid suggestions have already made here.

Sustain, Pitch Bend and Modulation (Vibrato) all take a bit of practice to get them right.  Just adopt the attitude... you are going to learn.  All these functions add expression to your music. Don't get discouraged or give up!

Joe H

[Bruce Breen]

Hi Toril,
May I suggest (although you may have already thought of this)?
You could also adjust the touch sensitivity up on the piano voice you are using - then you will have a softer sound until you press harder...
Save this in a registration so you can call it back anytime you need it...

[Toril S]

Thanks a lot John, Joe H and Bruce for the advice and encouragement! Much appreciated!😀

[overover]

Hi Toril S,

"Panel Sustain" and "Sustain Pedal" do completely different things:

When you press the Panel Sustain button, the value of the Voice Set parameter "RELES." (= Release Time) is temporarily increased. This means, the time from releasing the key(s) until the sound "dies down" is prolonged/extended. So you could also leave the Panel Sustain button OFF, but increase the value of "RELES." slightly.

You can determine the Sustain Level applied to the edited voice when the VOICE EFFECT [SUSTAIN] button ("Panel Sustain") on the panel is turned on:

Go to VOICE SET of the desired voice, tab to EFFECT / EQ Page and go to 1 REVERB DEPTH / CHORUS DEPTH / DSP DEPTH / PANEL SUSTAIN.


The Sustain Pedal works completely different. The only thing it does is: When the Pedal is pressed, the voice sounds exactly as if the key(s) were pressed all the time. In certain limits, you can try to adjust (increase) the "DECAY" parameter (= Decay Time) in Voice Set. This parameter determines how quickly the sound reaches its Sustain Level (a slightly lower level than maximum). The lower the value, the quicker the Decay.


Please refer to pages 14/15 in Tyros5 Reference Manual (section "Voice Set" is starting on page 11).

Hope this helps!


Best regards,
Chris

[Toril S]

Thank you so much Chris!!😀

[andyg]

On the Teaching Materials section on the Downloads page of my website, you'll find a tutorial for learning how to use the sustain pedal properly. As has been said, it takes some time and effort to get right but once learnt it's automatic.

Half-pedalling is another matter entirely, and a technique that many pianists never try out. Those that do find it tricky to master. Again, it takes time and practice.

I find it much easier to pedal using a proper piano shaped pedal like the FC4, rather than the square footswitches like the FC5. I keep both in the bag, ready for use.

[Toril S]

Thanks Andrew! 😀

[overover]

As a "precaution", the following note:

Yamaha keyboards like Genos, Tyros and PSR-S models do NOT support the "half-pedal" feature.

So, normally the Yamaha FC4 / FC4A or FC5 pedals (that work as a "momentary foot switch") are used with these models.

The Yamaha FC3 / FC3A pedals  (half-pedal capable) also work with these models, but then you will have only the simple on / off function, which is also achieved with the other mentioned pedals.


Best regards,
Chris

[Toril S]

Hello friends I am getting the hang of it slowly. I really don't know why I have been so reluctant to use sustain pedal on the keyboard, I always use it when playing the piano! Maybe a more piano like pedal will help, but the little, square one is handy, and takes up little space

[mikf]

Toril -You have to buy the proper piano type pedal. The little cheap ones have insufficient feel and are really only useful for intermittent on/off switch functions. Even a very experienced piano player would find those awkward to use for piano sustain.
Mike

[Toril S]

Thanks Mike The little one I have is also making an annoying clicking sound when pressed. It is not a Yamaha pedal, but looks much like the little, square one they have.

[andyg]

Not all square pedals are created equal! I always recommend that my students who are really going to use them (and not just plug them in and press them occasionally!) get the Yamaha ones. Funnily enough, my foot switch is not Yamaha but I've had it for donkey's years, before I played Yamaha keyboards. Can't remember the make, but it's all metal and quite weighty. The plastic ones from China don't last and soon start clicking away and then break. FC7 has been with me for over 15 years, just as good as on day one. I can't remember if I've got the FC4 or its equivalent from Korg or Roland in the bag. I've got them all!

Bottom line - get a decent one! So equip yourself with an FC4 and enjoy getting to grips with piano style pedalling!

[Janus]

Not all square pedals are created equal! I always recommend that my students who are really going to use them (and not just plug them in and press them occasionally!) get the Yamaha ones. Funnily enough, my foot switch is not Yamaha but I've had it for donkey's years, before I played Yamaha keyboards. Can't remember the make, but it's all metal and quite weighty. The plastic ones from China don't last and soon start clicking away and then break. FC7 has been with me for over 15 years, just as good as on day one. I can't remember if I've got the FC4 or its equivalent from Korg or Roland in the bag. I've got them all!

Bottom line - get a decent one! So equip yourself with an FC4 and enjoy getting to grips with piano style pedalling!

I use a pedal switch from an old Sewing machine
A 100 times better than the Yamaha pedals
The yamaha pedals are to smal and don't stay on place
The sewing machine pedal is a heavy one and keep his place on the floor
I use it already many years

[Robert van Weersch]

I've tried several pedal switches, mostly the simple square models. The FC4 is of great quality, but so are several other brands. I've had Nektar switches for many years now, which have been used equally frequent as the FC4, but still feel at least as good, but cost less than half.
I don't use a piano-style pedal, let alone one from a sewing machine , for the simple reason that I need to have a good balance between stability and weight, because I carry the T5, switches, small PA, mic, stands etc. at least once a week to a rehearsel and frequently to gigs, so every ounce less counts.

[Toril S]

Thanks Andrew and Robert😀