I am still having frustration with recording on Genos

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I am still battling away with recording and when using a reference track on the Genos (wave file) and then play my recording on the midi side i can get both fairly equal sounding.
I record my midi file to wave with a good signal not just quite going into the red zone.
When i save the file to usb stick and play it on my othe computer or hi-fi the reference track is much more pronounced than my track ( louder and better quality).
When on the genos everything is great. Puzzling!!

Is it anything to do with the Compression and eq on the Genos that gives a false impression of the track recorded.
My recorded music always comes out softer than i recorded it but when working on the Genos it is very good for levels. I am still missing a little trick here i feel.
I want to get recorded music as near as i can  and just polish it in Cubase  and through Sonarworks.


Al the Best
John
I'll get there in the end--hope!!

[manuel]

Hello

I think you can download Audacity for either PC or Mac, is a free audio program and in witch you could load the recording you made, and then select the process of "NORMALIZE" this is a feature that can elevate the wave sounds without the possibility of saturating of distorting, there is a control that you should adjust because I am sure that every recording is most likely to have a different amount of signal....so, when you press Normalize, a window will pop out and select from -2 or even 0 , even if you see that went to the red or saturated, remember that you that you can "UNDO" it and try with a different setting on the Normalize.

I hope you try it, I have been using this "trick" for many years..... I have Sound Forgue that is also an audio program, but, I still use the Audacity from time to time....you also can convert the Wave to MP3 and viceversa, just make sure you install the plug ins for the Audacity, just Google Audacity download.

Cheers...

Manuel

[beykock]

Hi John :

You have a great DAW : Cubase.
Cubase is a program used by many pro recording European studios.

The most difficult part of mixing is mastering.

Mastering is a profession and needs a lot of time, training and practice.

Babette

[panos]

Hi john,
to tell you the truth I didn't get what your problem is but if an audio file sounds differently on your Genos tahn on your pc that's normal.
Your pc has different default EQ settings and your Genos has also it's own EQ settings so when you play the audio file I think it is normal to sound slightly differently.
Also I don't know in what quality Genos can play an audio file.
Can it play audio files and produce 320kbps quality for example?

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi To Babbette and Manual
I had not been on Cubase for a week or so and still learning.
I just got to grips with the Control room and can compare my mixes and i do know how to setup for the Genos and vst.
I have just done a recording and put a reference track in Cubase and yes, i still have a way to go with processing.
I purchased Sonarworks and that has made a difference to my room environment.
I get a flatter response and a track i did a little while back came out very good..
This new recording sounds great on the Genos but not so good on my othe computer or hi- fi.
Yes, i am getting a little frustrated as it is a long learn curve.
I did use Audacity to normalize and limit and boost to -3db on the Tyros 5 and that worked.
On the Genos it is a lot different. You have to spend time working at it on this keyboard as there are a lot more adjustments to make.
Once i have cracked the levels and quality from record to playback i will be a happy bunny.
Don't get me wrong, as the recordings are not too way off. I have just set myself a standard which i want to reach.
I woke up this morning and the song A and B levels were out on the mixer and the pro track reference was now louder and punchier with a nice wam feel and mine a litte toppy and  and lacks a punch. I do not mean like heavy metal music, just that nice feel.
I do find that VST is much easier to handle, but i want to get the Genos sounding like some of those vst sounds.
You do find a lot of peoples Genos recordings sound a little boxy, but quite a few with  fantastic results.
I have only started to do mixing this last year and i have progressed very slowly indeed.
I will of course keep going relentlessly as I love punishment .


All the Best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Panos
Glad you came in as I have been going around in circles with my brain again.
Yes, the Genos can play a WAV file in the song A section and you can play your midi file on the song B section.
I do this to get somewhere near before having a go in Cubase.
What input signal when recording on the Genos do you have.
Do we have to record all flat with no compression or eq on the Genos.
Some record flat and some do not . A grey area for me.
I could spend lots of time track building , but i at this time played a new song. Practiced it a few times and recorded in one go. So all the leads are on channel 1 and program changes. I can always add pads later.
If i wanted to go deeper, i could split the tracks in Cubase and go to work that way.
It is nice to hit a track off in one go and do some minor edits, but that does limit you on the mix side a little. I try to do some eq in Cubase and a final master.
Well I did have a go In Cubase and the Luf meter was reading -12  and the reference track about the same, but my peak levels were + 7.
This made me scratch my head about 1am in the morning. I really wanted to go to bed at that moment, but you must know about just 5 minutes more uggh!!
Most songs are -14 Luf now and the peak levels around -6.
My recordings look a little different
I have got to learn to get the sound to Luf level and keep the the parts in the frame as well.
Well that is where i am at the moment
Got my room sounding right now, but have to learn how to train my ears more.
What settings do you use in the mixer ? and does your Genos recording sound the same on other equipment straight after recording or somewhere in the frame.
This of course if you want a quick record.
I will try again today and knock the Genos EQ and Compressor off.
I will have to start writing what i learn down in a book.
It is funny that if you do other things a few weeks back the memory gets blocked sometimes and you say to yourself, how did i do that!! " It is probably me getting old"!!
It is a long learn curve being a young 68 and a few strands of hair left.

All the best                     
John

[DerekA]

John

If I understand, you're saying that:

+ You play both a wav file and a MIDI file on the Genos, and they sound identical through the Genos
+ You create an audio file from the MIDI file on the Genos
+ When you play both the original wav file and your new audio file on the PC, they sound different
+ You want them to sound the same on the PC, but can't quite get there

I don't know the answer, just wanted to play back the question

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Derek
When i play a wav file of a record on song 1 and get my levels up to that on the midi side, i go for record.. But the recorded pro wav file always sounds far superior to the one i made level.
It does seem when you record on the Genos all is nicely balanced , but after recording to wav file everything seems lower on output and thinner. This i suppose a lot of people choose Audacity to bump it up a little.

All the Best
john

[beykock]

As far as I experienced an audio file made in a DAW ( especially when VST's are added e.g. ) will always sound slightly different when the finished audio file is played directly in an arranger keyboard.

When your audio song is completely ready - made in your DAW -, after mastering ( 2 track / stereo ! ), this audio file must give you the best sound result and/or should be sent to critical people who want to hear your song.

Never make a master immediately after you have edited each of your separate audio tracks.
Always record " dry " audio tracks.
No effects and no pan. Add these effects only during the mixing.

Wait a couple of days before you decide to make your final product ( master ).
A master should only be made when you have " clean " ears.

Only speakers with a neutral sound are usable to make a perfect mixing and master.

Good luck, Babette

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Babette
I  take your wise words in and knock that eq  and compression out on the Genos when recording and deal with that in Cubase. Keep flat.
I have spent time in getting my room neutral with help from sonarworks.
I do realise that ears get jumbled after a while and need a rest. You are right there.
I have put my song file for those to have a pick at critically up a couple of posts ago in this section.
I am getting close but still that fine detail out.
It is nice to hear other peoples views as that is the only way to improve.

All the best
John

[Joe H]

John,

I listened to your recording... it sounds like your EQ is set for playing on the Genos with your monitors, but may not be right for playback on the PC or your home stereo.

I'm having the same problem as you including low output. (your level sounds OK to me)  I use good high-end headphones, but what sounds good on the headphones with my S970, when I play on my PC it sounds different. (not so good) Getting the right (sound) reference environment is so important.

So... my current approach is to create a User Master EQ for recording and also a User Master compressor setting for recording that will give the results I want.  I'm still tinkering with the settings, but this seems to be the way to go.

Joe H

[panos]

Hi there John,
No matter how good you "fix" your room for a better sound it will never sound as perfect as in a real recording studio,right?
No matter how much time you will spend to "fix" a sound to be perfect it will never be as perfect as from a sound engineer who is doing that for living unless you also spend the next 20 years of your life trying to learn about sound engineering in a daily basis and work with other people that they have spent their previous 20 years in sound engineering and they can teach you their experience beside them.

Anyway,
playing something in Genos that sound good ON Genos,I also don't think it's gonna work for the best sound you are looking for.
The sound in any case must equalized when it comes from your DAW played ON the pc.

As for my live recordings,
just a discent not a bad sound will make me happy because I spend a lot of time each week to learn a new song/composition with or without having a sheet or a midi to show me the correct notes (so my ears allready have a "job" to do),
I also spend a lot of time to create a style and pick the sounds for playing that song (so my ears have another "job" to do)
and finally I must arrange everything that way that it will give time to my hands to change voices,mains,fill ins,etc and most important to have a Seamless Sound Switching everytime I push the above buttons, which is giving me the biggest troubles in my "arrangements".

So there is no time for further mixing-equalization on the pc, because I must go to my daily office work at some point and do other things etc, neither I want to burden my ears with another "job" because I know that this will lead me to an endless need for improvement everytime I play it back

ps
JM Jarre has now far more better tools (ableton live) to make a lot easier a good mixing for his new tracks but still I prefer to listen to his 40 years old ones. They are more interresting by far

ps2
I cannot understand what's the benefit of so much usage of compression everywhere and all the time.
Especially when we use just one source of a sound which is our keyboard (there is no drummer,quitarist,or a singer that every one of them is having a lot of "ups" and "downs" in volumes).
I think we should better use our ears for the first and the final result. They may have a better taste in sounds and what their levels should be than a "compression".We must give the sounds their "air to breathe" and everytime a different sound (a melodic part) is the "star" for just one moment the other sounds should play in slightly lower volumes.

ps 3
I enjoyed very much your last cover,it's fantastic and sorry for the long post

[beykock]

Hi John :

Thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate your comments.😃

Back to the ( studio ) recording ...

In pro studio's all voices are recorded separately without any effects. Effects etc. will follow later after the " dry " recording.

Feel sorry to hear an arranger kb is not an instrument that most pro technicians like to make multi track recordings.
They prefer to work with synths ( Montage e.g. ) and drum machines and/or pro studio musicians and producers to create a perfect pro recording and master.

A Yamaha style is a collection of different voices, volumes and effects.
Even if these voices are " dry " recorded in separate tracks, it is not easy - almost impossible - to remove all effects.

Especially the SFF2 voices might be a serious problem.
If you want to remove all the effects from an SFF2 voice, you might be very disappointed if you hear the sound of this
" naked " voice.

In fact an arranger kb is a " live " instrument and a 2-track recording could be a better option to maintain the original arranger kb sound.

For this kind of recordings a pro multi track DAW is not needed since the recordings will always be " demo's " and not always be usable for professional applications.

Maybe the 28 June 2019 update might be helpful to make the Genos a pro recording studio instrument ... cross my fingers ... but ... a Genos is not a synth and is a different pro instrument.
Plse do not expect miracles but be happy your home recordings will sound very well.

Wish you a lot of fun !
Best wishes, Babette

[EileenL]

Hi John,
  For me your song did not sound Natural as a song recorded in audio on Genos would. I found the voices rather harsh. This may be because I mainly listen to songs just recorded on Genos and hear the voice as it is supposed to sound from a Yamaha keyboard. Believe me you don't hear many complaints if any. In fact most love the sound of Genos just as it is. I know this is difficult because everyone listens with different equipment.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Joe
It is a time thing that clocks up loads of hours and to get information to stay in your head.  I am writing all things down now
I have cut the Eq and compression off and haveing more tries to see if i can improve more.
The song i put on this thread to me sounds a little thin and toppy, but i want that warm clarity sound. It is not that far out, but i am critical of myself.
I have now decided to disolve the tracks in Cubase to get the tracks separated. I can then treat each track.Well, worth a go.
I went to audio connections in Cubase and set up as i should but could not get any sound from midi through my Focusrite 6i6.
I must have re-tried a load of  combinations  knowing that it used to work and sat there for a good hour wondering what the hell is wrong.
It dawned on me in the end. I had the Yamaha DXR'8s plugged in the back of my Genos .
As soon as I put the outputs to the focusrite which is connected to my Focal Alpa 50 monitors things worked again. Using headphone output to do the editing and not to annoy my other half.
For normal practicing and playing i use the DXR's. Must be the brain cells dying or something like that!!
It would be a good thing to have a thread to share settings with others and experiences in Cubase.
Strange things happen with midi in Cubase .As i was editing a few notes every note on G3 went boiiooing like a spring sound. After going back and forward a few times it went.
Sometimes when you restart after an edit the musical notes can turn to drums ,whistles etc.
It really is a case of going back befre the last program change.
This does not happen if you put all on separate tracks.
It is all here to tax us

All the Best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen
I am trying to emulate that 60s feel with the Them song  "Here comes the night".
I agree that it is a little on the harsh side at the moment and i have to learn to get it a little warmer. I may put the USB stick in the Microwave!!
I particularly do not like the finished recordings straight from the Genos as to me there also something missing.
Different genre's have different characteristics accross the stereo spectrum
If you listen to VST sound,you are in another ball park with rich sound.
I would like to get the Genos like that.
Again we all have different lug holes
I tried my song on the hi-fi after a few tweaks and it is nearly there and sounds even better on my Marshall Kilbern.
I will not give up Eileen and i will hack this in the end.

All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

One thing i am now noticing is that editing in Cubase just on the midi side throws up quite a few strange anomalies.

If you go through a sound device like the Focusrite the glitches go  on midi. Having Genos output to input of Focusrite and out to monitors or headphones.
I would have thought that the Yamaha driver would be better for just the midi side without having to open up your audio box.
It tells me that the Yamaha midi driver is not that good and that is where something needs improving.
Another thing that i do not know that may be possible is to use the Genos EQ in Cubase?? via controllers.


All the Best
John

[beykock]

Hi John :

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Yamaha's midi driver. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your arranger keyboard.

Please accept It is almost impossible to make perfect recordings with your present hard- and software home studio configuration, IMHO.

I think Eileen is right.
Your Genos audio recorder offers you the best sound results for the time being.

Babette

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Babette

Well I put it this way from my obvervations.

Genos and using Yamaha midi driver through the computer back to your Genos and then speakers is not perfect.
It coud be a driver or Sys Ex
Problems do go away if you just multitrack with instruments all on separate tracks.

If you engage your Genos Song sequencer and play a song straight through using registrations then you get all sorts of problems in Cubase.
This now means that your track 1 has program changes throughout the song and the styles section would be all in one if you make a style change with different tempo.
This is a quick way to making a song.
When you just want to make minor edits to your timing and maybe note lengths on your lead playing all goes well until you stop and start again.
The sound sometimes changes to drums going manic to different sound levels or even a different instrument sound sounding odd.
This can be frustrating and time consuming.
You can get over this by ignoring the strangeness and go back to the beginning of a song or go back to where the last program change occurred and the Genos plays alright again until you make some edits and restart where you left off.
Last night because of this strangeness i have decided to separate all tracks for Cubase which worked on the Oxygene 8 track i made.
Using Sonarworks for my room ,i made a few adjustments and now i am happy with that . It may not be in the upper reaches of mixing yet, but i am getting there.

So all of this was just using the Genos /Yamaha midi driver and straight through record including registration changes.

When i start to mix my song i have to change my output leads over as one set goes to a hum destroyer and then to my DXR 8's.
The other set goes to the Focusrite 6i6 which is linked to my computer and Focal Alpha monitors.
Now i can use the Genos and VST. So now i have clean connections going to DXR's and for recording purposes using the Focusrite and Focal Alpha speakers .

I put my midi fle of the song i made on usb and then import to Cubase with all the right settings so you can hear everything.

Now i notice that my midi song plays straight through without any funny glitches or strange anomalies even if i stop and start anywhere in the song and make edits.
Well something is right or wrong here and it has to down to SYS EX communication or drivers in my humble opinion.
I may be wrong as someone with more technical knowledge may advise.  I will have to test this more to see if this stays stable, but this is what i am getting at the moment
Now i can record the midi to wave in Cubase without the glitches and it works. At the moment!! As we all know things can have little nasty anomalies.
The Genos is a great instrument , i am not denying that. I have just got to get stability and that will come trying hard as i can to improve.

This is all of my observations after having Cubase now for 6 months
I will say to those with Cubase that using a sound device is better for editing the Genos sound sequencer midi file than just using the Midi driver and a sound device shut off . It would be great   to get some feedback on what i have said.
Now I have got this far I am writing all down so my memory does not get fuzzed.
I have got good ears still and know the quality that i want and i have or nearly got used to frequencies using EQ,  but i have to master all the other things. time and profanities will sort that out i am sure.
Only a couple of day's now for the Genos to turn into a stealth craft.

All the Best
John

[beykock]

If you want to do an audio multi track recording there is no other option than to record each track separately.

For midi recording I am ( still ) working with XGWorks.

In my perception XGW is the best midi multi track DAW for Yamaha arrangers.
The sound is great and super editing tools are available.

Babette

[EileenL]

On another forum which is just Music there are several members who use Sony Vegas Pro for the EQ settings and believe me one chap has a PSR 650 and the end product he posts sounds like a real orchestra has played the piece. Just brilliant.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen

You are right as the Genos could produce high quality standards
Sony Vegas is a glorified  Audacity but much more technical and better
I do have some great eq vst plugins  which i am studying at the moment
It is all down to taking small pieces in at a time and failing a 1000 or more times to learn.
With Eq there is hi shelving/Low shelving frequencies to learn and it is small movements that make the big difference when eq ing,
You have to get your low,mid's and high's accurate,but that takes a long time to get your ears in there with your room acoustics also to battle with.
I find it fun learning, but also can get frustrating at times.
I wished i took to playing keyboards and learning to mix when i was younger.
No regrets as the 60s and 70s were great fun!!! Give me a time machine  and i would go back in an instant.

All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

hi
I reckon if more people shared there experiences and settings and how things  are done it would be great. Must be in plain English though as a lot of us are slow learners
More input on a separate thread mixing and mastering with Cubase would be fantastic

All the Best
John

[pjd]

I am trying to emulate that 60s feel with the Them song  "Here comes the night".

Hi John --

Something clicked when you mentioned this song as your reference.

A lot of those old tunes were recorded through the Decca Studios console in the 1960s. The "Decca sound" is famous. I would recommend studying the Decca gear and production techniques. You'll probably find plenty of tube and/or passive equalization and compression.

Yamaha provide both the VCM EQ 501 and VCM Compressor 376 effects on Montage/MODX. Genos only has the VCM Compressor, unfortunately. Quite a few Montage/MODX patches are routed through the 501 just to color the sound in some subtle way even though the gains may be set flat.

Hopefully, these comments will give you a different direction to look. You might also want to study the Steinberg Yamaha channel strip collection of VST plug-ins.

All the best -- pj

P.S. There are free versions of vintage EQ and compressor plug-ins on the Web. Some are pretty decent.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Thanks PJ for your tip there .
I will certainly look at the Decca system.
Great to have helpful hints.
I have got a few Ik Multimedia effect plugins and a few waves effect plugins plus the ones in Cubase
I will have a look through them as well.
I got a few effects plugins when those crazy deals were on.

All the Best
John

[panos]

John can you upload Oxygen 8 to app.box to listen to it with a better sound quality because the soundcloud is distorting the sound?

There are some huge benefits beetwen inserting a whole (midi) song to a DAW and make changes to it and inserting separately the parts of the song to different channels(As Babette indicated)
In the second case you can:
a)Change the sound or add effects for each part individually,like we do with our keyboard's parts in midis and styles.
b)Equalize each part separately and when you go for the final master equalization and just a part doesn't sound right with it, then you go to that part and equalize it differently.
(eg everything sounds nice but the hi-hat sound is annoying)
c) Apply different volumes for the tracks in any part of the song and you can insert fade in & fade out effects for the parts.

As for the EQ "programs" they all do pretty much the same thing.
If you apply "faulse" settings with one EQ program,probably you will apply the same "mistakes" to whatever EQ you may use.The difference is how "handy" an EQ program is for each user.
That's just my opinion of course 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Panos
I have sent you a  message with the Oxygene 8 file link.

I am just in the process of separating the Here comes the night song i done so as to work on each track and i will see how that pans out. I want to get some more body in the song, but i feel it is not too far out.

All the best
John

[beykock]

Hi John :

My last question :

Have you ever tried your built in keyboard sequencer and recorded 16 ( or less ) separate MIDI tracks in your Genos ?

If not, plse try.

Then bring that midi file to Cubase, play it ( use Genos outputs for all individual midi tracks ) and listen and compare the sound quality.
If necessary simply adjust only the volume of each individual recorded midi track.

If you like the sound quality make a copy of the midi file and save it.
Close Cubase.
Open Cubase again and load the copy of this midi file in Cubase.
Then REMOVE all effects and pannings.
Listen to the result.

If you like it, make a new copy of that midi file, give it another name and save it again.

Finally bring that midi file to your Cubase Audio recorder and record all " dry " midi tracks separetely, track by track.

Do not add ( yet ) any effect, no panning, no VST's but adjust volume of each recorded audio track ONLY !
Now you have finished your BASIC Audio recording and the real audio recording actions and editing can start.

Babette

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Babette
Yes, i think you are right as i have tried to unravel the song i did in one hit and strange anomalies happen.
I will have to get in the habit of recording songs track by track  on the Genos and then go over to Cubase without effects.
I do like to play the songs completely in one go, but recording is a little different on approach if you want quality.
I will redo this song the way you have explained and see what i can come up with.
Thanks for your explanation.
All the best
John

[beykock]

John :

Fine ! 😄
I am looking forward to hearing your comments after you have finished the job.

It is obvious your midi song recording creation is one of the most important tasks.

All corrections and/or adaptions ARE to be done in the midi file.
In other words all " mistakes " etc. are to be corrected before you can start with your audio recording.
Your midi file must be " perfect ".

All these corrections and/or changes etc. can be done in Cubase.
Use the " dry " midi file to do this job.

Personally I prefer XGWORKS to do this particular, very important task.

I repeat again : XGW is still the best midi DAW for Yamaha arrangers, IMHO.
This program is old, never updated nor upgraded by Yamaha since 2002. We do not know why ... but we deeply regret this decision. 😡.
I discussed this issue many times before here
but it is clear Yamaha nor Steinberg will never build a new XGW. 😢

Later on we can talk ( in general ) about Audio editing, if you wish.
A complete other world than midi.

BUT ... without creating a perfect midi file, an audio recording can never become a success, IMO.

If your midi file is not well done, you will NEVER be able to make a good final " product ".

You need a lot of patience and time to make good recordings but it brings a lot of fun and joy once recording becomes your passion.😻

Good luck !
Bye for now.

Babette