OTS and octave...

[alfaholic]

Hello everyone,

For some reason OTS does not remember my octave settings in Right 1, 2, and 3. If I choose registration where my Right 1 is octave -1 then I change to OTS 1, everything is 1 octave lower.
OTS is even worse than registration, it does not remember DSP effects, octave, who knows what else is not recorded in OTS.

Maybe I am doing something wrong?

[panos]

When you press registration and then you press the OTS,forget what the registration is supposed to do.
In this case you tell the keyboard to play the voices through the OTS and not through the registration.
To have one or two octaves up or down to the OTS voices,for each single voice of the OTS,  select "voice set" choose the octave for the voice and resave the OTS.

[alfaholic]

Thanks, but you did not understand the problem. Of course Registrations and OTS are independent, however no matter in which octave you write OTS, if your registration was -1 then all OTS after will be -1 from its saved position.
For example, I press registration where piano is -1 for Right, then I write OTS with that same piano set to -1 for right. Then I choose another registration where guitar is set to 0 for Right, then when I choose the same OTS where my piano was -1 for Right it will be at 0 position, one octave higher.

[Joe H]

These kinds of things are often "user error".  So I'll ask the obvious... are you saving the OTS correctly?

Joe H

[alfaholic]

Well, now after you asked something like this I am not sure anymore.   

Jokes aside, here is how I do it:

I prepare everything, Rights 1, 2 and 3, DSP effects, everything in the mixer, then while holding MEMORY button I press one of the OTS buttons. And it works well, all 4 OTS. Until I select another registration with different octave settings, then all saved OTS go up or down one octave depending of the registration I selected previously.

[Fred Smith]

Well, now after you asked something like this I am not sure anymore.   

Jokes aside, here is how I do it:

I prepare everything, Rights 1, 2 and 3, DSP effects, everything in the mixer, then while holding MEMORY button I press one of the OTS buttons. And it works well, all 4 OTS. Until I select another registration with different octave settings, then all saved OTS go up or down one octave depending of the registration I selected previously.

After you have memorized your OTS, you need to save it as a user style. That's why you get a warning every time you memorize an OTS.

It's also why most people use registrations or OTS, but not both.

Cheers,
Fred

[alfaholic]

Of course, I save the style after I set all 4 OTS. 

So if I understand well you are familiar with this problem?

[Fred Smith]

Of course, I save the style after I set all 4 OTS. 

So if I understand well you are familiar with this problem?

I don't have the problem because I use only registrations, not OTS.

Cheers,
Fred

[ckobu]

Somewhere you're doing wrong. OTS stores all settings related to Right 1, 2, and 3. Insert DSP, Octave, Tuning, value master reverb and chorus, volumen ...

[tyrosaurus]

You can see which parameters/settings 'should' be memorised in OTS and Registrations in the 'Parameter Chart' of the downloadable 'Genos Data List'.

Whilst browsing the Genos Data List Parameter Chart, I noticed that there is no entry for the 'Upper Octave' setting, unlike all Tyros models, where it is included in registrations (but not OTS) in the Voice group.

Perhaps someone with a Genos would be kind enough to check this to see if the Upper Octave (panel buttons) setting is really not included in a registration, or if it is simply an omission in the Data List.


Regards

Ian

[ckobu]

The specification is written incorrectly. Genos registration stores UPEPR OCTAVE. OTS does not store UPPER OCTAVE but stores Octave for each Part individually.

[Joe H]

Of course, I save the style after I set all 4 OTS. 

Therein lies your problem.  The OTS is NOT saved in the style using Style Creator, you must press the Memory button then one of the OTS buttons.

If you are going to save more than one OTS at a time... here's how it works.

Edit OTS #1 then press Memory while holding down the Memory button press OTS 1 button, then when the dialog asking you if you want to SAVE appears select NO.  Then go to OTS 2 and do the same procedrure.  When you have edited the last OTS and then when asked to SAVE select YES. This will take you to the folder/ directory where the style is located and the style will be highlighted.  Then complete the SAVE.

Now all OTS will work as you edited them.



Joe H

[panos]

Thanks, but you did not understand the problem. Of course Registrations and OTS are independent, however no matter in which octave you write OTS, if your registration was -1 then all OTS after will be -1 from its saved position.
For example, I press registration where piano is -1 for Right, then I write OTS with that same piano set to -1 for right. Then I choose another registration where guitar is set to 0 for Right, then when I choose the same OTS where my piano was -1 for Right it will be at 0 position, one octave higher.

First make the OTS with the octaves that you want for each single voice and then save the OTS voices to the registration.
NOT backwards: first saving the reg 1 and then saving this reg 1 to the OTS 1 is wrong if the reg has +1/-1 not in the voice set but using the octave +1/-1 button (general volume octave).

"""""however no matter in which octave you write OTS, if your registration was -1 then all OTS after will be -1 from its saved position.""""
When you press a reg with -1 octave then you tell the WHOLE RIGHT PART of the keyboard to play -1 octave so the OTS is playing -1 octave until you press a new reg with different octave settings or you press the upper octave button.
(You should have an indication at your screen when you press the reg that you are currently at -1 octave)

I don't know if Joe's post or mine helps but I am sure you can make the voices to sound how you want even if you have to use OTS1 and OTS2 with same voices but with different octave settings through the voice set.

[alfaholic]

@Joe H

Thanks, but I know all that. OTS simply do not remember DSP tweaks and octave.

@panos

OTS can not be saved to the registration. OTS is saved as a style part.

As an example you create registration called "She's like the wind", and when you select that registration it recalls Right 1, 2, and 3, DSP effects, style, tempo, pedal, transposer, and multi pad. With that style comes OTS you prepared earlier. If your Right 1, 2 and 3 saved within this registration are made with octave -1 your OTS will be 1 octave lower than you made it initially.

This style can be used in many registrations, some of them will have Right 1, 2 and 3 set to 0, some of them to -1, others to +1. This style's OTS will change the octave for each of those registrations because OTS does not remember in which octave it is saved.
Using OTS 1 and 2 with the same voices but different octaves has no sense, because there is only 4 OTS places, also you do not know whether you will need it to be 1 octave lower, or higher, so in theory you would need 3 OTS for one sound, and you will still need to guess whether you need lower, or higher OTS.

[panos]

When you say that you are using -1 octave for the registration are you using the upper octave button to apply the -1 octave or you going through voice set?

edit
I had to use same voices with different octaves because either I run out of keys (61 keys and not all for right hand)  or because a particular voice in a high octave is just killing my ears 

The other thing is when we use regs we do not use OTS also for the same song.
We continue reg1-reg 8 or reg 10.
I have done it but I don't gig so it is easy to remember what to press at home.

[ckobu]

We have to make a difference between UPPER OCTAVE and Octave. 
UPPER OCTAVE works globally (-1, 0, +1) and at the same time acts on all three parts. It is stored in the Registry. OTS remembers Octave (-2 ... +2) values for each Part separately. It also remembers everything that is assigned to DSP, Volume, EQ ... I do not know why @alfaholic does not do it.

I made a small video that explains some things.

https://youtu.be/tGwrvPtw_Ws

[jwyvern]

Although I generally keep away from using OTS, I have just saved a couple to test the voice octaves and ability to hold dsp tweaks on Genos. They retain  both octaves and tweaks (at least for 1 Dsp!) with no problem (even having first changed to a different style to deliberately try to mix things up).
Bear in mind that OTS will not store the keyboard upper octave settings but registrations will. So if you apply a reg which is set to a different upper, the OTS by design will not correct it when activated, hence until you reset the upper manually all your OTS octaves could sound "wrong" for this reason, but it does not necessarily mean the actual voice properties have not been memorized.

John

[panos]

Here is another video with the usage of the upper octave button in a reg.
The reg "tells" the keyboard to play an upper or lower octave so the OTS is just "listening" to the keyboard.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qUNHCUb56WJDKywN32WNaIvHxGjnXaQk

If we want to have a different octave to the reg but when we go to OTS we want the original octave then:
Prepare the OTS and save it.
We go to the voice set and change the octaves we want for each voice.
Save the changes to reg 1 without(!!!) using the Upper Octave button and without(!!!) changing the OTS settings.

For reg2 just call the OTS and doing the same thing etc.

So the keyboard KEYS will always be at the 0 octave position and OTS will play at  0 octave position when we press it.

[EileenL]

Go to voice setting and set your octaves for each voice here R1 R2 R3 Left. Then save to OTS.

[alfaholic]

Bear in mind that OTS will not store the keyboard upper octave settings but registrations will. So if you apply a reg which is set to a different upper, the OTS by design will not correct it when activated, hence until you reset the upper manually all your OTS octaves could sound "wrong" for this reason, but it does not necessarily mean the actual voice properties have not been memorized.

Thank you John, this is what I am talking about. OTS simply does not "correct"  the Right octave setting. Yes you can set it to 0 and then leave it there, but what is the point in those two buttons if you can not use them.
I understand many of you believe this is a feature, but actually this is a bug or simply bad design because there is no logic in having an option to save some state if you are not able to recall it. All other manufacturers have their OTS and only Yamaha is unable to recall everything you saved within the OTS.
The worst part is that OTS actually remembers and recalls the octave, but it shifts up and down depending of the registration you are in at the moment, this is clearly a bug or simply a bad design.

As for DSP ends, there is no way to save more than one DSP effect on OTS per Right, it even does not work with user presets.
Genos offers 39 DSP effects at once, there is no logic in this limitation. This is also not a feature, it is clearly a bug or bad and old design no one is fixing for a "flagship" arranger.

[panos]

Sorry my friend but If you take the time to read my posts I am trying to tell you what to do and what not to do to achieve the correct octaves using regs along with OTS.

Regs have been designed to be used with regs.
If a reg changes something crucial to the keyboard(octave,key etc) we know that we must use another reg to set things back to the preset state or press the freeze button to cancel an order.

It is the design of Yamaha keyboards not just the design of Genos that works that way.
If this design is logical or not logical, I am not a keyboard designer to know the limitations of a Yamaha keyboard to redesign it.
All I know is just finding the way to do what I want to do if the machine allows so or not doing it if it doesn't allow.

[alfaholic]

@panos

I understand what you are saying and you are right it can be used that way, but your suggestion is not a solution to a bad design, it is a workaround. And yes, it works if you decide to use the keyboard that way, by limiting yourself not to use OTS when using Registrations, or any other combination you end up because of this limitation, but for me this is simply not enough. The same can be achieved by leaving Upper Octave always at 0, but that still does not solve a bad design, it is a workaround which suits my needs little bit better.

Registrations are not designed to be used with registrations, I am sorry but this is just apologetics.
Registrations changes everything that you previously selected while holding MEMORY button (except DSP tweaks). You can use them in many ways, from changing the complete setup for a song, to changing only the upper part of the keyboard, and so on. There is no some general rule about how to use the registrations.
OTS changes the Right/Upper part of the keyboard. Registrations are independent and they are contained in a separate file, but OTS is located within the style and recorded to the style, as in every other keyboard, Korg, Roland, etc. OTS should remember and recall everything that is connected to the rights, DPS effects, octaves, sounds, volume, panorama, routing, however Yamaha decided to exclude more than one DSP effect and Upper Octave in OTS recall. There is maybe some other things I need yet to discover, but this is it for now.
As the name implies, One Touch Setting should give you a fast access to 4 right/upper sounds or sound combinations, and that includes DSP effects (39 of them), octave for each Right part (or general Upper Octave), no matter you previously started by manually selecting style and sound, or with just one click on the registration. OTS Should not shift up or down because of the different Upper Octave setting used in the registration. If this is done intentionally then it is a bad design. If this is left like this because it was some old design, it is still very bad decision on their side.

[jwyvern]

Hi alfaholic,

There are other properties beside those you mention that are not stored/ restored by OTS. They include keyboard transpose by semitones, the main split points, and Fingering. The fact the limitations continue to exist is presumably  a reflection of the fact that those who use OTS as a simplistic  mainstay for voice setups have not over the years been motivated to complain in sufficient numbers to bludgeon Yamaha into making the necessary design changes.

John

[alfaholic]

Thank you John. 

I have plan to use the same OTS for all my styles just as a backup, to have 8 to 12 solo instruments (Right 1, 2, and 3 times 4) right at my fingers. I would probably not use them, but still I wanted to know what is going on.

[panos]

Ok I can see what you are asking for, but by changing "global" settings with the OTS buttons is going to do things complicated for the users that use just OTS.
And there are many.Too many!!
They don't know how to set registrations or don't need more than 4 voice sets so they are fine with the OTS  settings.

If OTS were more advanced like registrations allready are,just concider how many times users ask for help in our forum to understand how registrations work and some even asking why do they exist as long as we have the OTS.

Yamaha keyboards concidered to be easy to play for the user.
This is an advantage for Yamaha keyboards whether we like it or not.

By the way are other brands have also registration buttons?
I haven't checked their buttons but more I watch videos to see how they sound.

[Joe H]

@Joe H

Thanks, but I know all that. OTS simply do not remember DSP tweaks and octave...

Posts here are like email... not the best way to communicate (to say the least).

It's incorrect to say we save the OTS by saving the style.  It is a separate block (chunk) in the style file, that's why we have to save it separately from the rest of the style. 

Have you tried saving the DSP settings as a User DSP? This is one of the shortcomings of Yamaha arrangers. People want to do more (custom) editing than Yamaha has implemented.

I have no trouble saving Octave changes with R1 and R2. This is done in the Mixing Console on the Tune page.

Joe H

[tyrosaurus]

It's incorrect to say we save the OTS by saving the style.  It is a separate block (chunk) in the style file, that's why we have to save it separately from the rest of the style. 

Hi Joe H,

Actually, if I modify the OTS on my Tyros4, then I can either save the modified OTS there and then, or I can open 'Style Creator' and save the whole style and the modified OTS is also saved along with the style.   Either way saves the new OTS to the style.

Try it on your S970 to see if it is the same.


Regards

Ian

[panos]

Joe is referring to the various different pars that a style contains(midi,OTS etc)

Ian if I change the OTS 1 sound and go to the style creator and just save the style,
the changes I made to the OTS 1 won't be applied to my model.
I have to save the OTS first.(on the psr s750: Memory->OTS 1->Save) 

When I said to Alfaholic first thing to do is to save the correct voices to the OTS and then to registration is because I believe this way it is easy to find the correct voices.
Just call the style and there they are.
Then you can mess around with registrations,changing the voices' octaves through "voice set" etc.
(reg1->voices set octaves=0.
reg2->voices set octaves=+1
reg3->voices set octaves=-1
press OTS 1 and you return to voices set octaves=0 as you want them to be)   

Maybe there is an easiest way which I am not aware of.

[tyrosaurus]

Ian if I change the OTS 1 sound and go to the style creator and just save the style,
the changes I made to the OTS 1 won't be applied to my model.
I have to save the OTS first.(on the psr s750: Memory->OTS 1->Save) 

Hi Panos,

Fair enough if that is what you need to do on a PSR.

However on my Tyros4 any changes to OTS that have been memorised into the button memories, but not yet saved to the style, are saved if I open 'Style Creator' and save the style from there.

I have just done it again to check.  I even recorded a new part to one of the variations as an extra check, and when saved the style contained the modified OTS too!

Perhaps the OP should check to see what happens on Genos which is the keyboard that he is using.


Regards

Ian

[jwyvern]

Re Genos, saving a style in Style Creator does save (previously unsaved but memorised) changes made to OTS in the current session.
John