Is it really necessary?

[Murat]

My opinion –

I totally agree that a keyboard specially a high-end keyboard should be able to do everything we want – but again, is it really possible to satisfy everyone? Is it really possible for a keyboard 'to do everything', should we not concentrate on playing and enjoying this beautiful beast called the Genos? Do we really need all those features? Are we really that proficient in playing the keyboard that we are constantly looking into very advanced options; are some of these actually help to hide our mistakes while playing or make it sound better than what we are really capable of playing?

One thing I keep seeing is 'professional' keyboard players think that home users don't deserve the high-end / advanced features of the keyboard because we simply play at home. I think this should stop – because, to be honest I have seen many 'professional' keyboard players playing in gigs or their YouTube channels (those who are brave enough to share their performances) and believe me we really should not differentiate between a home user and a 'professional' gig player because the 'professional' players are not any better than a home user in many cases. It really is not whether or not you play a gig, it is all about if you are actually any good or not. Everyone deserves the same from the Genos who has paid for it.

The forum is filled with technical jargon, most is not really relevant to the Genos either. Surely, people are free to write what they want but more relevant questions are often gets missed out.
Tell me if I am wrong, but this forum is for everyone; doesn't matter if you are beginner or an advanced player; or if you play gigs or play at home.

Enjoy your Genos and have a beautiful day.

[EileenL]

Hello Murat,
  A great post from you and one I really agree with. It would not be possible to add everything people want to just one keyboard. Most really good players would not need a lot to produce beautiful music live at home or as a professional. In fact I have heard better music coming from home players than professional ones. Being classed as professional only means you get paid for playing this dose not always mean you are a better player, in fact I have known some players do a gig and not play a note because they have used Midi Files and pretended to play them.
  Genos is a lovely keyboard to play and if a little time is spent learning how to get the best from it then I think most people will be happy with it. KEEP LIVE MUSIC PLAYING 

[Toril S]

Very true!

[sooty8]

Well said Murat, infact I went to see a keyboard player recently entertain in a club, I wanted to hear a Genos played in a function room,
what I heard was an evening  of  Yamaha Midis played through a expensive keyboard. To be fair  the singer had a nice voice, he did not require the keyboard at all. The audience  loved it, sitting at my table was a woman not looking very happy, I asked her if she was alright, she said she came to the function hoping to hear what this keyboard was capable of by a professional keyboard player, the lady played a church organ. A lesson for all professional artists, you never know who is sitting in the audience. On the keyboard players website he states that he has been playing the keyboard as a professional for 30 years. The next day I went onto the Yamaha Website and sampled some of the midis which i believed he was playing, they all were identical to the previous evenings entertainment programme. My wife said I should go out and entertain like this, the audience loved it and it sounded  great, I would feel awkward  doing this, as what do you do with your hands whilst the midi is playing?
As Eileen said, Keep Live Music Playing.

Steve

[Toril S]

I am not a great musician, but I never use MIDIS! But this really shows that most people do not care how the keyboardist is making the music as long as they are entertained!

[mikf]

I'm sure we have all experienced having a device - whether keyboard, car or whatever, - that has a hundred features we never use, but still lacks the one we really would like. They will never be exactly tailored for any individual. The features on these keyboards are driven by many things across a wide market. Generally good players just want good sound, and ease of use/playability. A lot of the other functionality is driven more by needs and wants of people who may not be very good players. Developing players need things that help them to sound better, and technical people want things that let them manipulate and control the sound production. They all paid their money!
On the question of professional playing, - even if not strictly correct I think the term 'pro' is used to imply a certain level of playing ability and experience rather than just whether they get paid. I personally have no problem with entertainers who get paid when they may not be what I might consider 'pro' level instrumentalists, provided they have something else of quality to offer .... great vocals for example. But when I hear a pure instrumentalist being paid that clearly is not 'pro' level, and hiding behind the keyboard technology, I feel that they are stealing the livelihood of people who spent a lot of time perfecting their skill.
Mike

[beykock]

Hi,

Herewith I would like to say I am very happy some
" professional " arranger keyboard musicians are also a member of this forum.

I am very grateful they are willing - free of charge - to share their knowledge, their advise, their support and their answers.

Thank you all, professionals !💐

Babette

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent thoughts, folks.

I agree that a "pro" implies a higher level of playing ability. I think when the arranger keyboard first came out (early 80s), it was more of a toy for those who were on a budget, had a decent musical ability, and were tired of investing thousands of dollars in full sized, furniture cabinet organs that became obsolete overnight when compared to the emerging technologies.

A pro level player from the 80s would never think of buying a small PSR arranger (although I know a few who did ). The arranger has since evolved to the point of satisfying a huge spectrum of playing abilities - including pro level players. The best players on this forum are not belittling those who want to enjoy their Genos in their living rooms. Rather, they are citing the Genos as having a lot of advanced level functions that could be easier to use and even improved. Therein lies the magic of the Genos - money notwithstanding, it's a great instrument for a child beginner or a seasoned veteran of the stage.

[alfaholic]

You can use your instrument the way you like, in your living room or for gigs, it is totally your thing and it is irrelevant what others think or say about how you use your stuff. There is no right or wrong in this, arrangers are considered as toys sometimes, however I am aware that many people make their living with this kind of instruments. I am open-minded as much as I can, and I try to accept that different times brings different music, different instruments, 100 years a go people used only acoustic instruments, today we use electronic very often, we simply evolve.

With that being said, there is just one problem with living room musicians who use arranger keyboards, and that is the fact that they are most of the time satisfied with less than the ones you call professionals, or i would like to say musicians who play arrangers for living.
This means that living room musicians are not pushing their arrangers to the limits because they do not need to, which is totally different for those who play for money and for other people, they need to use their arrangers efficiently and some small quirks can mean big problems when playing live. Not to mention people who create content for arranger keyboards, they suffer the most because they are unable to be creative because keyboard makers are getting false messages from majority of their users that everything is OK, and they only need to address some minor bugs in their OS.

We all use our instruments differently, and no one is right or wrong here. Just we need to understand each other, and have respect for both, musicians who do not want to use everything they paid for and are satisfied with basic stuff, and that minority that want to push the boundaries further and make Yamaha (or other makers) to give us more options, untie our hands to use our instruments the way we like, or create even better content.

[panos]

Murat is just that Genos or a Tyros 5 have so much to offer to the player with all their  functions and abilities so when the user focuses to some of them which he uses a lot he sees that these keyboards can do even more if Yamaha decides to level up some functions.

If the Genos or any other model of these series is a a toy or not?
Next time someone tells you this, ask him to play a song on his pro synthi or digital piano.
When he triggers his basic drumset tik tok sound,tell him that these toy sounds we use them as a metronome on our keyboards.

Our keyboards are the only instruments capable of real time control of different kind of organs playing together.

[Tyros5Mad]

Most music created today (and I say that while holding my nose) is heavily "doctored" in post processing. Just look at VST plugins like Melodyne, which can change just about everything in a recording. It's like pictures or video that can be "doctored" by Photoshop.

I agree with Eileen that many so called home players can do great music and we see and hear that right here on this web site every day.

However there are many ways to create music and playing live is just one way. Playing a keyboard is just one way. Playing a guitar or bass or drums is just one way. Each to his or her own is my philosophy.

But, arranger keyboards like the Genos, Tyros, and other Yamaha keyboards, not to mention other brands of keyboards, have really enabled a single person to become a band and that was a giant leap forward for music. I do not understand why so called real musicians look down on arranger keyboards as being "home keyboards". There are many top level musicians, and I know some of them, that have an arranger keyboard as part of their equipment so they can have a way to get a quick feel for a piece they are working on.

That's my 2 cents. Regards, Richard

[Lee Batchelor]

Good points, Richard. I think the negative bias that some pro players have with arranger keyboards is based solely on economics. I work with two very excellent vocalists who just love my Genos sounds and the way I present them. The one vocalist used to do gigs with a drummer and bass player. Now he works strictly with me. There's two guys that no longer work with my vocalist. I've replaced them. It's just like the auto industry. We need far fewer assembly line people, thanks to robotics.

[beykock]

In 2017 Yamaha have introduced the Genos.

Plse remember Yamaha's Genos commercial video's were made in a German Super Pro Recording Studio to show the world the Genos is a professional electronic instrument.

I believe Yamaha had the intention to convince professional musicians the Genos is a real pro music instrument and no longer a " toy ".

It looks like Yamaha's video advertising has been successful.

Nowadays more and more pro musicians are buying the Genos and are becoming active members of this forum.

I am very lucky to have more professionals among us.

Their input, their comments and their help are very useful to  make me a better home player by learning some of their professional skills.

Babette

[Tyros5Mad]

The Genos is not the first keyboard to be promoted as a Pro music device. It been happening for a long time.

BTW on pro musicians. I dare anybody to suggest that Peter Baartmans or Martin Harris or any number of Yamaha demonstrators are not pro musicians.

Regards, Richard

[beykock]

Both gentlemen ( from The Netherlands and the UK ) are real super professional musicians and very nice people.👌

Babette

[pjd]

I'm not into labels "pro", "amateur", "home player", ... Labels tend to divide people. Besides, I don't fit any particular category (maybe "hack") and I'm sure that other folks aren't so easily categorized.

Part of people's occasional frustration is how Yamaha positions and promotes its own products. Please check out the Genos overview and feature pages on the Yamaha USA site. Yamaha are promoting Genos as a songwriter's tool. Further, right there on the features page is a big picture of a CFX grand on stage. You don't see pictures of people playing at home (although you will see such pictures for other products).

This kind of promotion creates customer expectations. If you're a songwriter, you expect DAW-like songwriting tools. If you buy a Genos and it comes up short, then you're frustrated/disappointed. Same if you're expecting a totally wonderful acoustic piano experience. Raised expectations often lead to disappointment.

I don't mean this as a slam on anyone or Genos. I love playing this thing!

Love you guys and wish everyone the best -- pj

[mikf]

I would have thought Genos, or in fact any decent arranger, is an excellent song writing tool for many genres. You don't need all the DAW functions to write a C and W song, or a ballad.  Full digital music production is a different thing entirely. But for many kinds of music, the final arrangement is done by live musicians in a studio with production experts, so all you need at the song writing stage is a decent demo tool to put something together. Any good arranger should be perfect for that.
As far as the piano sound is concerned, I am a pianist and have never found any digital piano that can compete with the feel and sound of a quality acoustic grand, but after taking that into account, the Genos sound does not fall that much short. Give a decent player a Genos attached to an 88 key weighted keyboard and he can make it sound pretty authentic. Maybe not to classical concert pianist level, but for most other purposes .....
Mike

[beykock]

Hi Genos Owners,

Do you agree the Genos is made for pro musicians as well as for home players ?

Babette

[Keyboardist]

And the list goes on and on.Cant please everyone as we all have ideas what works best in an arranger.
So many get so wrapped up in what it cant do; we forget what it CAN do.
If it makes you happy to buy and try to play a Geno's so be it. It has so many features you can spend the entire time trying to figure them all out and then the next one appears and we want that one!
If it works for you and makes you happy each time you sit an play it whether at home or on a gig then that's a good thing isn't it.
Be thankful that we have them available as we would obviously need a whole band in the past to accomplish what we have today to sound as good as it does.

[Tyros5Mad]

Genos is excellent - period. No matter what level of player you are.

RL

[mikf]

For gigging keyboard players who want the arranger functions, the Genos is going to be one of the front runners. But there are other good options from Korg and Ketron, and also the Yamaha PSR range. Final choice would be from personal preferences driven by things like detail features, price, weight, operating system familiarity. There will always be trade offs.
I no longer gig and chose the CVP for home use. If I was still gigging I am not sure what I would choose, but do know for sure that any one of them would be about 200 times better than the stuff I used to gig 30 years ago!
Mind you, when I think about it, if I was gigging today I would probably be looking for venues with a grand piano so I didn't have to carry anything at all.   
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Genos Owners,

Do you agree the Genos is made for pro musicians as well as for home players ?

Babette

Definitely!

[Pianoman]

My opinion –

I totally agree that a keyboard specially a high-end keyboard should be able to do everything we want – but again, is it really possible to satisfy everyone? Is it really possible for a keyboard 'to do everything', should we not concentrate on playing and enjoying this beautiful beast called the Genos? Do we really need all those features? Are we really that proficient in playing the keyboard that we are constantly looking into very advanced options; are some of these actually help to hide our mistakes while playing or make it sound better than what we are really capable of playing?

One thing I keep seeing is 'professional' keyboard players think that home users don't deserve the high-end / advanced features of the keyboard because we simply play at home. I think this should stop – because, to be honest I have seen many 'professional' keyboard players playing in gigs or their YouTube channels (those who are brave enough to share their performances) and believe me we really should not differentiate between a home user and a 'professional' gig player because the 'professional' players are not any better than a home user in many cases. It really is not whether or not you play a gig, it is all about if you are actually any good or not. Everyone deserves the same from the Genos who has paid for it.

The forum is filled with technical jargon, most is not really relevant to the Genos either. Surely, people are free to write what they want but more relevant questions are often gets missed out.
Tell me if I am wrong, but this forum is for everyone; doesn't matter if you are beginner or an advanced player; or if you play gigs or play at home.

Enjoy your Genos and have a beautiful day.

Hello Murat.

I'm trying to understand the gist of your post, but it appears thhat something about professional
musicians seems to have somehow gotten under your skin.

I see that you've used quotation marks 3 times when referring to professional
musicians.

It's just another job man, just more pleasant.
We all have to do something to earn a living. Some people work in offices, some do other things,
and some play music, as a pleasant way to earn a living.

I know some very nice people on this forum who play music for a living and who have
gone out of their way to help many of us when help on many things is needed.

Not once have I heard any of these fine people say anything negative about home
players.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Bill]

Hi Abby

I do not think that Murat has acted with any anger, maybe he is just taking a lief out of your book and speaking "Tongue in Cheek"

However the word is frequently used to indicate the being paid makes you a better player. The terminology is used to loosely these days.  The fact that someone is paid for doing something (like playing an instrument does not (in my opinion) make you a professional. 
Although I admire the garbage collectors that take my rubbish away each, the fact that they get paid does not make them a Professional Environmental Practitioner.   You would not call a Busker who earns his living busking in the London Underground a Professional Musician.

Those that Do an occasional GIG in a care home or cafe, are not automatically entitled to call them selves a professional. I my eyes a Professional is someone who is qualified to the highest level (NOT a couple of Basic Music grades from School) such that they can enrol in a Professional Organisation / Institute and progress in full time employment to the top tier of their game.

Most professionals do not refer to themselves as such, I would suggest those that publicly claim the "Professional" Title, do so as a status symbol to suggest they are better than someone else, which is what Murat was inferring to.

The above is not intended to inflame peoples emotions JUST MY OWN THOUGHTS on the subject.

Regards

Bill

[whataguy]

I played for dancing and dining in clubs on weekends for close to 25 years. But, I never quit my day job. Guess that makes me 'Lucky'. Don in MI

[Toril S]

And the gist here is that we all deserve keyboards with great features, as the Genos has, both professionals and home players. I agree. As a hobby player I could have got a keyboard with fewer features and saved some money, but I opted for a model that will give me years of fun learning to use the features. I am not offended if someone calls me a busker. Artist, pro, home player, busker, they are just labels.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Adding to this conversation ,people who think Arranger players cannot be pro like are mistaken.
Ok, you have auto rythms but still have to change chords and your timing has to be 100% as your backing band is a bunch of robots that never give up.
They do not slow down or speed up a little to help the other members of the band. If you get lost they keep marching on whilst your fingers are trying to catch up. You know fingers have a brain all of their own!!
Your backing band are relentless beasties and never drink a pint of beer.
On top of all that you have foot pedals pads and bend wheel to contend with which takes a lot of practice to get right.
Most musicians have a single instrument and play a part, but the arranger player has to have ten pairs of hands.
To me that is a skill in itself. Yes the good old one man band!! .

All the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

Good one, John. In a duet or trio, the Genos pilot must also look after the sound mixer on the fly. Talk about trying to do 10 things at once!!

[Tyros5Mad]

That's why I create a backing track for all the songs I want to record for the Internet. I want them to be half decent and I just cannot do all of the following at the same time:

- play the keyboard
- operate the multi-pads and knobs and sliders
- operate my Vocal Harmony box
- do the vocals

When I am jamming with friends or doing sing-alongs, I don't care. Mistakes do not matter.

Regards, Richard

[mikf]

Of course some pro musicians use arrangers. A pro in my book is someone who has  a high level musical experience, musical ability and talent. The arranger happens to be the instrument of choice for some.
But I don't buy into all this button pressing art and use of features etc as part of the qualification. You have to be competent at whatever tools you choose to use if you are a pro. That's a very basic requirement -like all journalists need to type well, but being a typist is not what defines a good journalist.

Mike