HD error message, replace?

[sugarplumsss]

I have heard from a tech that the Yamaha HD is quite expensive and that I could use an off brand to replace the Yamaha..
Suggestions for a replacement HD?   Thank you

[EileenL]

Yamaha usually use Seagate or Toshiba 2.5 drives.

[DerekA]

You can use pretty much any hard drive that's designed for laptops (2.5" SATA). It can be either a traditional spinning-disk type, or a newer SSD type.

(I think you also have to give the drive the right label, can't remember exactly)

[sugarplumsss]

There is a tutorial on this installation? Is there a procedure for correct labeling ?
At least seven years since the t4, is the price for the oem yamaha hd the same, presumably sky high?
I thought I recall in the $400 range!
I have seen HD for $30 ...What bearing does price have on the reliability or performance of the t4?
What size drives are recommended ?  And advantage of SSD ?

OT  but   wouldn't it be helpful if you could do a search on our t4?

[EileenL]

Tyros 4 used a 250 Gb hard Drive

[Arnak]

Hi,

See this page to fit a new HD:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffeOJUp--1M

That should be very similar to installing a standard 2.5" HD or an SSD if you prefer.

Before you do that save your T4 license file as below :-

http://www.luckeirse.be/onderwerpen/Tyros%203/Documenten/How%20to%20install%20Premium%20voices%20and%20license%20key.doc

Also check if you have any custom voices, styles etc already on the drive as you will want to save them first.
Probably easiest to copy them to a USB or connect the T4 to a pc and copy the entire drive as a backup which you can then copy it back to the new drive.

I would say that it gives you a chance to fit a larger capacity HD, most decent makes are very reliable these days, such as Hitachi, Samsung etc.

The advantages of an SSD is that it will perform faster but whether it makes much difference I'm not sure.

Martin

[tyrosaurus]

Yamaha charge a stupid amount for a replacement hard disk for a T4.

Although it is a recognised brand, there is nothing special about the disk itself and a replacement (250 GB 2.5 inch SATA) or larger one can be bought for less than $50.

However the disk requires a SATA to USB interface board to work with the Tyros.  Yamaha will only sell you the disk complete with the interface board, which increases the cost (but not to Yamaha's extortionate price)! 

If the interface board is still working on your existing T4 hard drive, then you can simply buy a new disk and transfer the board to it.

If the interface board has failed, then you need to either buy a replacement disk/interface from Yamaha, or obtain and use a different interface board.

The interface board on my T4 failed years ago, but the disk drive itself was still OK.

Rather than pay the silly price that Yamaha wanted for a replacement, I bought an external case for a USB laptop hard disk, deliberately looking for one with the same USB socket as the Yamaha interface, and one that I could easily remove the actual interface from.

I found such a device on Amazon for less than £10 GBP.  I could have installed the original disk drive in the external case itself, but I wanted to actually mount the drive on the disk tray/caddy of the T4.  Because I was able to remove the interface from the external case, this was simple to do.

The 'new' interface has worked fine since.  The one that I bought was USB 2.0, but I have also tried a USB 3.0 one with no problems.

I have also since replaced the disk drive with an SSD with no problems although since the USB controller on the T4 is only USB 2.0 (and at times a very slow one at that!), this will restrict the apparent speed of the disk to USB 2, but in reality this is plenty fast enough for keyboard purposes.   However I like to back up my T4 hard drive by removing it from the keyboard (just slide out the caddy) and connecting it directly to my PC via  USB.  The faster speed of the SSD and/or the USB 3 interface makes backing up the drive mush faster. 

An SSD is also silent but the noise of a mechanical drive is not usually a problem in a keyboard!  An SSD should be more immune to damage from physical shocks when it is working, although they are supposed to be susceptible to damage if the power is suddenly removed!   You shouldn't need to defragment an SSD (in fact you shouldn't do this, since it increases wear on the cells making up the drive.  SSDs also handle file deletion differently to mechanical drives.   

Here is a link to a YouTube video showing how to change the disk on a T4 (also applies to T5).  Although the video shows haw to replace the disk with an SSD, the steps are exactly the same if you just want to replace with a mechanical drive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffeOJUp--1M

Important:  the original interface on the Yamaha disk seems to be a bit sensitive to static shock, so if you remove the drive from the keyboard, make sure that the power is off, then leave it for a couple of minutes before removing it. It is best to minimise touching the interface board but you will have to if you want to change the drive, so ground yourself before touching the interface board.

A new drive must be formatted as FAT32 to work with the keyboard, and this can be done on the keyboard itself once the drive is fitted. This will also set up the folder that is used for holding 'multi' audio recordings.  You don't need to concern yourself with labelling the drive!

Incidentally the T4 will work fine without a hard disk. The OS and settings files are all held in internal flash memory.  However you will need one if you have any Yamaha Premium Voice Expansion packs.  Non Yamaha expansion voices work fine.


Regards

Ian

[sugarplumsss]

SSD or the regular drive chosen by Yamaha is under consideration.

SSD is only maybe $20 more than alternative.

SSD is more resistant to shock, so seems like to smarter choice, however, SPEED when accessing data is very important too.

Discuss?

Thank you.

[sugarplumsss]

Is the consensus that the SSD is indeed faster than original HD? And by faster, in practical applications, one can navigate from file to file quicker with SSD?

Thanks

[WTIerney]

tyrosaurus - can you give me a Amazon or other pointer/link for the SATA to USB item you referred to above?  I'd like to replace my HDD Sata to USB interface board.  Thx!

[tyrosaurus]

tyrosaurus - can you give me a Amazon or other pointer/link for the SATA to USB item you referred to above?  I'd like to replace my HDD Sata to USB interface board.  Thx!

Here is a link to the external drive enclosure that I purchased...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000V8I5GW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Note that I only wanted a new interface, but this was back in 2014 and I couldn't find a suitably small one for sale as a separate device.

Then I thought about using the interface from an external disk enclosure and looked specifically for one that had the same USB socket as the original Yamaha interface.  This meant that the cable from the Tyros4 main board could be plugged into the new interface without using an adaptor.

This device had the correct socket, and it was simple to remove the interface from the enclosure, which allowed me to mount the disk drive in the original Tyros caddy.  The main parts of the external enclosure became 'redundant'!

I have also purchased the USB 3.0 version of the same enclosure back in 2015 which had the same USB socket.  Although I have tried it in the T4 with no problems, I am still actually using the USB 2.0 version, and you should ensure that the socket is still the same if you buy one now!

From the USB version point of view it doesn't matter as far as the keyboard is concerned, since it will only ever perform at USB 2 speeds. However, if like me, you prefer to remove the disk drive in it's caddy from the T4 to back it up on a computer, then the USB 3.0 version will work faster when connected to the computer, assuming that you connect it to a USB 3.0 socket of course!

There are plenty of other similar enclosures and 'stand alone' interface cards available today, but again it will be simpler if you get one with the correct USB socket.


Regards

Ian

[Toril S]

I am impressed!

[WTIerney]

Superb!  Many thanks!

[sugarplumsss]

Guys, You are both pleased with what the resident genius here, Ian, has showed you. But for a fellow like me.. I do not understand what the advantage is of what Ian so graciously went into so much detail about.
There is no need to restate what Ian said... but without any technical terms, what is the reason for this modification Ian showed us?
Why might I need or want this?
Thanks

[pjd]

If I get this right -- and I'm sure Ian will jump in here -- commodity (inexpensive) 2.5" disk drives have a so-called SATA interface. The Tyros 4 wants a USB interface instead.

Part of Yamaha's expensive drive replacement kit includes the "adapter" to change SATA into USB (and vice versa).

Ian bought a commodity 2.5" drive. He also bought a disk drive enclosure which contains an "adapter". The combined cost is lower than Yamaha parts service.

Hope that summary is correct -- pj

P.S. Ian, why not use the original drive adapter? I don't have a T4 to tear apart... 

[tyrosaurus]

Hi PJ,

It was just the SATA to USB interface board that failed.  The disk drive itself was fine.  The interface is on a card which bolts to the drive case so there should be no problem about replacing it. There is no need to tear apart the keyboard. The drive with the interface can be removed in a slide out caddy without doing anything more than removing three small screws.

However when I called Yamaha UK, they said that  they would only supply the interface as part of a new drive, at a cost of over £300 GBP!

This was for a bog standard Seagate Momentus 5400.6 250 GB drive, which could be bought at £50 or less even back in 2014.  This means that Yamaha were effectively charging around £250 for the interface!  I think that the term 'daylight robbery' is not inappropriate here!  To add salt to the wound, by that time although it would still supply part numbers, Yamaha UK had stopped supplying customers directly with keyboard spares, and instead referred them to an approved retailer.  It was pointed out to me by Yamaha that the price quoted by them could be subject to a surcharge/markup by the supplier!

Surprisingly, I declined Yamaha's kind offer and spent less than £10 with a retailer on Amazon, 10 minutes work and I have been using the replacement ever since.

Maybe the Yamaha interface is better quality, which it should be for £250!  However my cheap alternative has lasted longer than the Yamaha original!

EDIT:  I have found my note of the price that Yamaha quoted for the hard drive complete with interface back in 2014, and it was actually £241.69 rather than the £300+ that I originally posted.  So apologies to Yamaha, since it means that they were 'only' charging around £190 for the interface      The part number was WU818300 if anyone in the US cares to look up the current US price on 'https://www.yamaha24x7.com/'  We have never been able to purchase parts from this site in the UK, but we used to be able at least to see part numbers and US prices, even without an account.  However a couple of years ago things changed, and it became necessary to create an account to even enter the site, which we can't do!.


Regards

Ian

[pjd]

Hi Ian --

Yeah, Yamaha 24x7 part prices can be breath-taking and not in a good way. 

So, to help out sugarplumsss, if dude's "adapter" is still good, sugarplumsss should be able to re-use the existing adapter with a new drive.

All the best to ya and thanks for the great posts and advice.

-- pj

[sugarplumsss]

Thanks Gents
So am I correct in calculating three items that could be faulty in regard to my intermittent error message when I tap the T4 HD?
1. The Drive ?
2 The Interface ?
3 The adaptor ?
But is this adaptor the smart work around of Ian, and not original equipment ?

Also this... Going just by words on a phone ( I have neither handled, nor seen the hard drive - so just descriptive words of a tech ) with a Yamaha Tech in an authorized Yamaha shop.

The repair person warned me about removing the drive... that a very delicate and precariously placed wire or connector can easily create a problem if removed improperly. It can catch on something and break.

Ian, do you know what the tech is referring to?

Thank you guys both, and others above these last two responses.

[pjd]

Hi --

I have attached two images from the Tyros 4 Service Manual which may or may not help. I have not taken a T4 apart (!), so a little hands-on advice here would help.

I believe that the tech is referring to the USB cable which attaches the drive to one of the internal circuit boards.

-- pj


[attachment deleted by admin]

[tyrosaurus]

Hi sugarplumsss,

You have obviously not watched the YouTube video that Arnak provided a link to in his reply!

This video shows all stages of removing the hard disk from the T4, removing the SATA to USB interface board (which is the green circuit board bolted to the outside of the hard disk drive), attaching the interface to a new disk drive, connecting the USB cable from inside the T4 to the disk/interface, and finally replacing the disk in it's caddy back into the keyboard.  In the video the hard disk drive is replaced with a new SSD drive, but the procedure is exactly the same if you use a new mechanical drive instead.

I urge you to watch this video which will clearly show you the procedure, and give you an idea of what you are dealing with.  If things are not clear to you after watching this, then I suggest that you let a technician do the work for you.

The 'very delicate and precariously placed wire or connector' that the technician referred to must be the USB cable which connects to the disk/interface that comes from inside the T4 since there are no other connections!  This cable is attached to the main DM circuit board inside the T4, and if you manage to pull it off the connector on the DM board then it will be necessary to open the case of the keyboard to reattach it!  That said there is a fair amount of slack in the cable, even when the caddy is completely out of the T4 case.

I will give the technician the benefit of the doubt, and assume that he was simply warning you about this, rather than trying to frighten you into giving him the work to replace the disk, which is a very simple procedure as long as you are careful!

Incidentally I don't seem to be able to find any post of yours that tells us what 'HD error message' you are getting!

What is the message?

When do you see it?  Is it intermittent or all the time?

I see you said in your last post that it occurs when you 'tap the T4 HD'.  If this is the case then it is possible that the USB cable plug that goes into the disk drive/interface is coming loose. 

It would be very simple for you to check this.

With the power turned off, pull out the drive in it's caddy and without removing the cable from the drive, just push the plug firmly into the socket to make sure that it is fully inserted.  Now just replace the drive caddy back in the keyboard's case and see if that cures the problem. 


Regards

Ian

[pjd]

Sorry 'bout that. I was traveling on the 12th and totally missed the video.

Nice video.   

Man, that's a lot of electronics for the SATA to USB conversion. Holy smokes!

All the best -- pj

[tyrosaurus]

Hi pj,

Actually my last reply was for 'sugarplumsss', the OP.   Sorry if you thought that I was replying to you. I have added the intended recipient to the post.

However you are correct about the amount of circuitry on the interface boards that Yamaha use, although I'm not sure that it represents £190 worth!

I have attached a photo of my T4 disk with the original (failed) interface on the left and the replacement 'cannibalised' from an external USB disk enclosure on the right.  This simply plugs neatly into the SATA socket on the disk and has the same USB socket as the original so the cable (or 'very delicate and precariously placed wire or connector') from within the body of the T4 just plugs into it.

Regards

Ian

[attachment deleted by admin]

[sugarplumsss]

pjd, Ian,  Thank you both for the "above and beyond" effort to help the less fortunate in the realm of electronics !  pjf, Ian seems to be the resident tyros genius here; and note: a genius is not necessarily forthcoming and helpful... but Mr Tyrosaurus is in a special category of super smart AND service minded.  Thank you very much Ian.

Electronics and computers are fascinating but.. far from my world of music.

I am forwarding this detail to the kind service minded musician who has stepped forward to help me... one of the less fortunate !!

On that note.. I have a photo of the INTERMITTENT message that tyros 4 unpredicatably displays regarding HD malfunction.
I am frustrated in my attempts to place the iPhone  pic of that message, here in this message.

Here it is the t4 message from top left to bottom right:

HD is selected among the 4 tabs



STOP       Unformatted disk

            To properly use the disk with this
            instrument , you'll need to format it
            ( FUNCTION-> UTILITY-> MEDIA).
            Make sure there is no important data in
            the disk before formatting: otherwise all
            data will be deleted

[EileenL]

Make sure you back up the contents of your hard drive to computer before doing a format. You can then load it back is as it was after the format.

[pjd]

Hi Ian --

No problem. Thanks for drawing my attention to the video and thanks for your photo.

The T4 service manual is rather vague about the details of the HDD unit, so the pictures are much appreciated.

-- pj

[sugarplumsss]

I do not understand the concept ( maybe multi concept ) of "corrupted file".

IF a file is corrupt and it is saved in who knows what places in various forms, in either USER, HD, Thumb Drives...
How does saving HD,  then reformatting HD, then Putting BACK the previous content on HD, eradicate the corrupted file(s)?

Listen, I am experienced only with music making, NOT computerese. So  I am here to learn.

[tyrosaurus]

IF a file is corrupt and it is saved in who knows what places in various forms, in either USER, HD, Thumb Drives...
How does saving HD,  then reformatting HD, then Putting BACK the previous content on HD, eradicate the corrupted file(s)?

Hi sugarplumsss,

It doesn't!  As you say if a file is corrupted and you copy it back to the hard drive or any other storage location, it will still be corrupted!

However formatting the hard disk or a USB drive will effectively delete everything on the drive! So you must back up the entire contents of the drive to a computer before formatting the drive.  Don't worry about corrupt files at this stage!

In fact I would say that you should do this A.S.A.P, to ensure that you have a copy of your files if the hard disk suddenly fails completely!

I'm assuming that the message that you are getting about the drive being unformatted is intermittent.  If so when the drive is working OK, you should make a back up as above.

The easiest way to do this is turn off the power, then connect the keyboard to a PC to the 'USB to Host' socket on the rear of the T4 using a USB A-B printer type cable. 

With your computer turned on and fully booted up, press and hold down the MusicFinder panel button on the T4 and turn on the power to the keyboard.   You can release the MF button when you see the Yamaha logo appear on the screen.

The T4 screen should display 'USB-Storage Mode (HDD)' and then a message box which you can clear.

After a while, it should connect to the computer and if you open Windows Explorer or whatever you use, you should see the T4 drive listed under 'Computer'. You won't see any details of when this has happened on the T4 so now concentrate on your computer.  It can take several minutes to connect so be patient.  I have never tried connecting to a Mac. so I don't know if it works on that platform too. However you say that you have a Windows laptop that you hardly use, so this sounds ideal! I don't think that you need the Yamaha MIDI driver installed on the computer to use this mode, but it won't hurt if it is.

If you can see the T4 HDD on the computer, click on it and check it's properties to see how much space has been used. You will need at least the same amount of space on your computer to hold the backup.

Click on the drive to expand and show all of the folders on the T4 HDD, select everything and copy the lot to your computer's hard disk.

Although the drive is 250 GB, most people haven't used  anything like that, unless you have a large quantity of audio wave files stored on it.  However it will take a quite a while to copy everything depending on how many files are on it.  If you use a laptop, you should plug in it's power supply, since it might drop the connection or even shut down after a while if you run it on battery power.

Once this is complete you should 'eject' the drive formally from the computer just as if you want to disconnect a USB stick.

You can then press the EXIT  button on the T4 and the keyboard will boot normally.

There are some instructions about this in the section 'Accessing an Internal Hard Disk Drive on the Tyros4 from the Computer
(USB Storage Mode)' on page 103 of the Tyros4 Owners Manual.

Hopefully you can get a backup safely stashed away before proceeding any further.


Regards

Ian