Recording into a STYLE PART

[Hugh Tyros 4]

The note 'B' when recording a STYLE PART

Although the first part of my topic is explaining how to record into a STYLE PART (I had to explain that, didn't I?) the real essence of this topic is further down.  The clue is in the Title above.

Note:  The problems I had when recording STYLE PARTS by this method have now been overcome, thanks to an observation by Drake Marker.  You can read what Drake has to say about all this in his REPLY further down.  I have tried one of his suggestions at the end of this Topic .. and it works!  Fantastic!

This is something I discovered several years ago about creating PARTS in a STYLE.  I would never create a Style 'from scratch' (I am not a drummer, or a guitarist so wouldn't have a clue what to program in for them) but have always been happy to use a 'default' Style and make some changes to it.  Usually this would involve changing the 'pattern' of the Bass PART, or putting a pattern of my own into one of the other PARTS. Bear in mind that the RHYTHM is the only PART that can be 'added to' .. or a drum sound taken out.  With all the other PARTS you first have to DELETE the PART (if there is one) before you can put something in of your own.

The first thing one has to realise is that all your 'patterns' (which can be 'chords') have to be played in the key of C.  So if your song has the chords C, Am, F, G7, if you were programming in eg. a 'repeating piano' you would program in the chords C, C, C, C.  This is difficult to get your head around!  When you subsequently use that style and play those chords C, Am, F, G7 then that is exactly what you hear played.  In other words, STYLE CREATOR is what it says.  It's for creating (or adjusting) a STYLE.  It is not somewhere where you can program in all the actual chords you play in a song in sequence and have them all play back at you while you play the melody as a 'karaoke'.

In this topic I want to tell you something about the actual notes you play when you program something into a PART.  To take you through the process I have to choose a STYLE, so I have chosen ModBigBandBld MAIN VARIATION B from SWING & JAZZ; and the 'pattern' I want to program in is an 'arpeggio', which I want to play with a Vibraphone.  Has to be in C .. so I'll program in some of the notes of the C chord, starting on the C.



You can have a listen to how I shall be playing these notes above when I program them into my PART.  In the DEMO below I have played the ModBigBandBld on it's own first; followed by the 'arpeggio' in C.  I have played both over 8 bars as this where the pattern repeats itself ie. a MEASURE is two bars and the STYLE is 4 MEASURES = 8 bars.

Style Part DEMO 1

I have got my REGISTRATION set up as below, with ModBigBandBld as my STYLE.



Next, press the DIGITAL RECORDING button in MENU.



Choose STYLE CREATOR.



This is the screen you get.  Notice that it is showing the STYLE we have chosen at the top .. ModBigBandBld.
And near the top, on the left, it is showing that it is MAIN B we are dealing with here, so it is only MAIN B that will be affected by what we do.  The other VARIATIONS will remain as they are.
Also, by default it is showing RHYTHM 2 as the slot to RECORD into.



Having listened to all the PARTS in this STYLE individually, I want to put my recording into CHORD 2.
I have already discovered that there is nothing recorded in this PART .. but if there were, I would have to DELETE this PART.
To do that you would have to press and hold the DELETE whilst pressing the CHORD 2 slot.



As I said, I didn't have to do that this time.

To set it up to RECORD in the CHORD 2 slot press and hold the RECORD CHANNEL on the right whilst pressing the CHORD 2 slot.




It's all set up to RECORD now.  But ...
You will see the recording VOICE is a Grand Piano.  Don't want that. 
You can choose your own VOICE to record with.
Press a VOICE CATEGORY on the main part of your keyboard. 
I have pressed PERC./ DRUM KIT and chosen VIBRAPHONE.



Press the EXIT to go back one screen ...



... and now we see the VIBRAPHONE as the VOICE set up in CHD 2.



Off we go.  All set?  Get the METRONOME going so we know where we are with the 'beat' .. although the RHYTHM is ON, and that may be enough to keep to the beat.  Put the SYNC START on so it's flashing .. then when we press a note with the right hand the recording will start (you're used to things starting when you press a chord with the left hand .. but this is different.  It's the right hand that starts the recording going).

To remind you what notes we are playing, here they are again:

Style Part DEMO 2

While you are playing those notes, count in time with the metronome / drum beat 1, 2, 3, 4 .. 2, 2, 3, 4 .. 3, 2, 3, 4 .. 4, 2, 3, 4 .. the PATTERN LENGTH .. then stop playing.  The pattern will repeat itself.  Unlike when recording a MULTI PAD you don't press anything to stop it at this stage.  What you have recorded will 'loop round' and keep playing until you stop it.  Just listen to what you have played and see if you are happy with it.  Then press the START/STOP button at any point to stop it playing.  If you are not happy with it, you can DELETE the slot (as explained above) and do it again.  If you are happy with it, press the EXIT ...



... which takes you to this screen.
Where you can SAVE it.



Give your new STYLE a NAME in the usual way.  I shall just add a 2 to the original name of the Style, so I get ModBigBandBld2.  This is SAVED into USER.



Now I am going to find my new ModBigBandBld2 STYLE and see what I get when I play a few chords.
No melody .. just a few CHORDS so you can hear what my Arpeggio I put into CHORD 2 sounds like. 

The chords I am playing are ...

/ C - - - / C - - - / Cmaj7 - - - / Cmaj7 - - - /
/ C7 - - - / C7 - - - / F - - - / F - - - /
/ C - - - / C - - - / Cmaj7 - - - / Cmaj7 - - - /
/ C7 - - - / C7 - - - / F - - - / F - - - /
/ C - - - / C - - - / C

Style Arpeggios DEMO 1

Did you hear those lovely Cmaj7 and C7 Arpeggios (C7 leading into F)?  Neither did I!  The only Arpeggios I heard were the C and F ones.  Bearing in mind what we have just done .. create an Arpeggio in CHORD 2 in the STYLE .. we should be getting an Arpeggio from that CHORD 2 PART to reflect the chord we are playing with our left hand.

In my next post I'll explain what is going on here, and what notes I should have played for my Arpeggio for it to work with those 7ths and maj7ths.  The clue is in the Title .. The note 'B' when recording a STYLE PART.

To be continued ...

Edit (by Hugh): Images are now LINKED to a new 'cloud' storage.  Text has not been edited.

[Hugh Tyros 4]

Topic continued ...

Let's just check first to see if I am playing 'allowed' notes.

From the Tyros4 Reference Manual:

Rules when recording non-rhythm channels
• Use only the CM7 scale tones when recording the BASS and PHRASE channels (i.e., C, D, E, G, A, and B).
• Use only the chord tones when recording the CHORD and PAD channels (i.e., C, E, G, and B).
For the INTRO and ENDING sections, any appropriate chord or chord progression can be used.

Well, I am recording into CHORD 2 and am only using the notes of C, E, G and B.

They then go on to say:

Using the data recorded here, the auto accompaniment (Style playback) is appropriately converted depending on the chord changes you make during your performance.

Or in other words, when I am playing a song and use this STYLE, the data is appropriately converted to suit the CHORD I am playing with my left hand.  It certainly played the C .. and the F (major chords).  And it would also have played minor chords, augmented chords, and diminished chords in any key .. but not 7th or maj7th chords.

The reason for this is because there is something going on here that they don't tell you. 
The note of B isn't a 'proper' note.  It is a "Joker" .. meaning it stands for THREE notes .. C, B and Bb.  And which one of those it actually plays depends on the chord you are forming with your left hand when playing a song.

So when you record your notes into a PART in SONG CREATOR, don't use C unless you want the C to stay as a C regardless.  If you want it to mimic the chord you are playing with your left hand then play a B instead of a C.

Back to the drawing board.

I am going to play my Arpeggio again, but this time will play the B instead of the C.
These are the notes I shall by playing for my 'measure'.  And this time, to make it sound a bit 'higher' I shall start with the E instead of the C.



Listen to the notes I am programming in.

Style Part DEMO 3

Now this very much goes against the grain, as this is an E minor chord, and you will hear it as such as you are playing it. 
But trust me, it will play a C instead of a B when you are playing a C major chord.

I have been through all the steps described above, putting this pattern into CHORD 2, and finally SAVED the Style as ModBigBandBld3.

Having found my ModBigBandBld3 STYLE I am going to play a few chords again.
Again, no melody .. just a few CHORDS so you can hear what my Arpeggio sounds like this time. 

The chords I am playing are ...

/ C - - - / C - - - / Cmaj7 - - - / Cmaj7 - - - /
/ C7 - - - / C7 - - - / F - - - / F - - - /
/ C - - - / C - - - / G7 - - - / G7 - - - /
/ C - - - / C - - - / C

Click the below and have a listen.

Style Arpeggio DEMO 2

That's better!  The 'pattern' I put into CHD 2 is now playing the harmonies for my chords correctly.  And all because I programmed in a B instead of a C and the "Joker" B has done what it's supposed to do and played a C for the C chord; a B for the Cnat7 chord, and a Bb for the C7 chord.

Here is another DEMO using ModBigBandBld3.

My Way

I hope this topic has given you an understanding of how "programming a PART into a STYLE" works.

Hugh

Edit (by Hugh): Images are now LINKED to a new 'cloud' storage.  Text has not been edited.

[DrakeM]

I used to record licks into the styles using your describe method. As this has been the preached way to record for years .... but

Actually the easiest way is to simply record in the PAD and then select the "Chord Source" MAJ (not the default M7). You can then record any lick or riff you want, using any notes you want. Then save the style and you can move the recording in the PAD to any part of the style you want by using "Copy and Paste."

I have shared hundreds of videos on You Tube of the styles I have put together using this easy method of adding new patterns into Yamaha styles.

Drake

[vlbrgt]

@Hugh,

Creating styles on the keyboard, you are limited to 8 channels (9...16).
Yamaha styles can use 16 channels.
How : channels 9 to 16 can be "extended" to channels 1 to 8.
Example extend channel 12 to channel 4 (the instrument must be the same on both channels)
Now you can setup in the CASM of the style how the two channels will act on playing chords.
You can make channel 12 to play for all major chords played with the left hand,
while channel 4 can be setup to play when a 7th chord is played.

This is a very basic explanation on how Yamaha styles are setup.
Using channels 1 to 8 to create styles can not be done on the keyboard itself.

Regards
Etienne

[Hugh Tyros 4]

Drake,

Thank you so much for your reply!  You have opened up a new world for me!  The reason why I have been recording STYLE PARTS in this way is because this is how I did it on my AR80 organ, which I have had since 1998 .. and this was the only way of doing it as the organ does not have MULTI PADS.

I have just seen your topic on using MULTI PADS to create the 'patterns' to put into STYLE PARTS ..

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,47177.0.html

.. and will find that very useful as more often than not it is the BASS PART I want to change in my STYLES, and when you can't use a B it means you can't create a 'walk-down' Bass pattern.  I will be able to do this now.

Would love to see some of the YouTube videos you have done on this.  I have found your YouTube Channel by clicking on the LINK at the bottom of your post.  I presume that the videos where you may have done this are the ones that say "Custom Style"?  Is there one video in particular that you would suggest I look at to hear what you have done using a PAD pattern put into a STYLE?

Hugh

[Hugh Tyros 4]

Etienne,

Thanks for your reply .. but I'm afraid you've lost me here.  I see Yamaha STYLES as being made up of the "parts" RHYTHM 1, RHYTHM 2, BASS, CHORD 1, CHORD 2, PAD, PHRASE 1 and PHRASE 2.  When I am using these I have parts ON or OFF.  Usually I will turn PAD to OFF as I use a LEFT HAND VOICE and PAD interferes with that.  PAD has a similar continuous sound which is the same whatever inversion of the chord you play, whereas the LEFT HAND VOICE will give you the actual notes you are playing.  So inversions of chords give you a different overall sound.

And sometimes I will change the allocated VOICE in a STYLE PART.  And it goes without saying that I always use the MIXING CONSOLE to adjust the BALANCE between the PARTS so they blend together better for the song I am playing.

What are these 'Channels' 9-16 you are talking about?  Are they MIDI Channels?  Is this a different way of making STYLES using MIDI?  I know that on the Korg PA4X you can convert a MIDI of a song into a STYLE for you to use when playing the song.  MIDI is not something I have looked into.

Hugh

[vlbrgt]

Hugh,

Correct  Channel 9-16 are Rhythm 1, Rhythm 2, Bass, Chord 1, Chord 2, Pad, Phrase 1 and Phrase 2.
You can use channels 1 to 8 as an extension for these.
For example you can extend CHORD 1 to Channel 4.
In the CASM section of the style you then define which CHORD 1 channel will sound when playing different chords.
These extended channels are mostly used for minor and 7th chords.

Regards
Etienne

[Hugh Tyros 4]

Etienne,

Thanks for that.  I think you have answered a question for me that I have wondered about for years.

On my AR80 organ (Yamaha) the STYLE section works in the same way as a keyboard.  When I play a chord with a STYLE (with no melody playing) I had thought that once the chord was recognised (playing any inversion of the chord) the resulting 'pattern' of the backing would be the same whatever chord you played.  So if you played a C chord, the notes of the backing would be based on C; then if you changed to an F chord the notes of the backing would be based on F .. but the backing pattern would be the same.

But I realised that with my AR80 this is not always the case.  To illustrate this I have chosen a STYLE called  Dixieland, from Swing/Jazz.  In this Demo I am just playing the Style 'straight' (no melody), and am playing four bars of F, followed by four bars of G, then Bb, then C7 .. and back to F. 

If you listen carefully to the Demo, the patterns of F and G are the same.  Bb and C are the same, but are completely different to F and G .. apart from the banjo, which seems to carry on regardless.  For Bb and C you have a very busy backing of trumpets and a sliding trombone.

DEMO of Dixieland STYLE

To be honest, I can hardly believe that you get a different backing from the same STYLE depending on the chord you play!  This means that the overall sound of the piece you are playing is dependent on the key you are playing it in!

By the way, when I program a backing of my own into a 'Style', the 'pattern' remains the same whatever chord I play .. my pattern.

From what you have said about the Channels, I reckon that when I make a Style, I am restricted to Channels 9 - 16.  So Yamaha must be using the other 1 - 8 to get a different response depending on what chord you play.  So thank you for giving me an explanation for something I have always wondered about!

I am wondering if keyboards do something similar.

Hugh

[DrakeM]

I do not record in the Multi Pads to create the riffs and licks.

Here are 3 pictures to clarify the location of the PAD to use to record your riffs and licks.

[DrakeM]

Here are 5 examples of riffs, licks and intros I have recorded into styles.

All the Guitar and Piano riffs heard during the verses of "Help Me Make It Through the Night" I recorded into the style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua_tSygTcPQ

The intro for "Only Daddy That'll Walk the Line"" was recorded into the MAIN "A" and used for the intro as well as used several time during the song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9D5JS2VUMU

All the licks heard during the both verses of the song "The Fireman" starting at 0:38 were ones I recorded into the style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dwxkjFOGzE

The intro for "Momma Tried" was recorded into the intro slot of this style. Also the ending lick was recorded by me into the style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71jM-HO6IkM

The intro for "The Chair" was recorded into the intro slot of this style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEctk0KwFfw

Drake

[Hugh Tyros 4]

Drake,

Re: Your earlier post ...

Got it!  You record into the PAD PART .. which means that you are recording into the STYLE CREATOR in the normal way.  Just choosing PAD rather than eg. CHORD 2 or PHRASE 1 when you do it .. and changing the Source Chord to Maj. 

No doubt there will already be something in PAD so one would have to DELETE the slot before recording into it.  As far as I am concerned, I never use the PAD anyway.  As I said earlier, I nearly always have a LEFT HAND VOICE playing and turn the PAD slot to OFF as the PAD interferes with my Left Hand Voice.

Hugh

[Hugh Tyros 4]

And the examples of the STYLES you have given where you have put your own 'riffs' into the backing are truly inspiring.   It seems to me, there are two sorts of keyboard players.  The first are the ones who look through the 15,000 Styles available and come up with a STYLE that would suit the song they are playing.  And the second, who know what they want to hear in the backing and would never find what they were looking for in any of those 15,000 Styles.  So they start with an existing Style and 'add in' the PARTS they want to hear.  This is what being a musician and having an 'Arranger Keyboard' is all about.

Hugh

[vlbrgt]

A must have doc for those who want to know (almost) everything about styles and CASM parameters.
https://wierzba.homepage.t-online.de/StyleFileDescription_v21.pdf

Regrads
Etienne

[andyg]

That's some heavy reading, Etienne! It was so much easier when I was in R&D, all I had to do was outline what the style should be like etc. The 'whizz kids' did all the programming! I have great respect for my friends and colleagues at Yamaha (and other makes for that matter!) who come up with the content in our keyboards!

[Hugh Tyros 4]

Etienne.  I was going to say the same.  I am a 'hands on' person myself and like to do things on the keyboard itself.  I need to 'hear' what I am programming in, and it's step by step instructions on how to do it that I really appreciate.  Hugh

[Hugh Tyros 4]

In all the Yamaha handbooks it tells you to use only the CM7 scale tones when recording the BASS and PHRASE channels (i.e. C, D, E, G, A, and B); and use only the chord tones when recording the CHORD and PAD channels (i.e. C, E, G, and B).  I have been recording my STYLE PARTS this way (with the "Joker" B) since 1998, but Drake Marker has explained how he programs his notes in (above). 

With keyboards, you don't have to program everything in in the key of C as there is an option to change this.  But why base your note patterns in another key?  C is the simplest key to work in.  Drake does base everything on C .. but doesn't use the M7 scale tones to do it.  And he always records into the PAD slot.  To show you what Drake does, I'll follow through an example of programming something in.  This time I am going to program in a 'repeating piano'.  Working in C, I will be playing these three notes of the C chord (as a chord) .. G, C and E.

As before, I am using the STYLE ModBigBandBld and am loading this into STYLE CREATOR.
Note once again that the STYLE NAME is showing at the top, and VARIATION MAIN B is showing.
I have set STYLE CREATOR up to RECORD into PAD this time.
And I have set my recording Voice to Ambient Piano.



But this time, before recording anything Drake says to move along to the tab PARAMETER.
This is what you see when you get there.



The SOURCE ROOT is on C by default, and it's here that you can change the key you are working with to another one if you so wish.  I will keep this on C.

The second column shows the SOURCE CHORD, which by default is on M7.
Clicking on the arrows underneath reveals the other choices in this column, which are:



Not sure of the significance of all these choices, but Drake says he always goes for the first one, Major.
So this is what I have done .. chosen Major.



Have then gone back to the BASIC tab and recorded my 'repeating piano' with the chord notes of G, C and E (no "Joker" B in this).  Drake says that he always sets the PARAMETER to Major and finds the notes he programs in always come out correctly when he COPIES the PAD slot to one of the others.  Now, I haven't done that.  I have left my recording in the PAD slot.

I have SAVED my adjusted STYLE as ModBigBandBld4.
Having found my ModBigBandBld4 STYLE I am once again going to play a few chords.
Again, no melody .. just a few CHORDS so you can hear what my Repeating Piano sounds like.

The chords I am playing are ...

/ C - - - / C - - - / Cmaj7 - - - / Cmaj7 - - - /
/ C7 - - - / C7 - - - / A7 - - - / A7 - - - /
/ D7 - - - / D7 - - - / Em - - - / Em - - - /
/ C - - - / C - - - / Cmaj7 - - - / Cmaj7 - - - /
/ C7 - - - / C7 - - - / A7 - - - / A7 - - - /
/ C - - - / C - - - / G7 - - - / G7 - - - /
/ C - - - / C - - - / C

DEMO of how the chords above sound

How about that then?  All the chords have come out correctly without having to use the "Joker" B.
So in future I shall be recording all my 'patterns' using the SOURCE CHORD choice as Major.

Here is another DEMO using the ModBigBandBld4 STYLE (with the repeating piano) to play My Way.

My Way with the 'repeating piano' in the PAD part

Hugh

Edit (by Hugh): Images are now LINKED to a new 'cloud' storage.  Text has not been edited.

[DrakeM]

Here is another tip for recording your riffs.

Let's say you want the same horn riff in measures 3 and 4 but not in measures 1 and 2.
Make a backup copy of the style you are editing. Use this backup copy of the style because you will be chopping up the style's length a couple of times during the following process.

When you are in the Style Creator recording your riff, don't start your playing of the riff in measure ONE. Start it in Measure TWO or THREE and play the riff four times and save it. (This is assuming the MAIN is 4 measures long).

Start the style and listen to the "first measure" as it plays. If it sounds correct, go and delete the other 3 measures (2,3 &4) by using the BASIC screen in the Style Creator (which is a hidden screen).

To see this particular hidden screen you will go to the Style Creator and move from the BASIC tab to the ASSEMBLY tab and then back to the BASIC tab. BING! You can now change the length of the style with this screen.

Shorten the style to ONE measure, save it. Then go back to the Style Creator and again use the BASIC screen and lengthen the style back to 4 measures. You will now have 4 measures with the riff playing correctly in all 4 measures. Following this process you only have to PLAY and RECORD your riff correctly ONE time and not 4.

To delete the riffs in measures 1 and 2 use the Style Creator EDIT TAB and delete all the events in Measures 1 and 2. Save the style.

You can now COPY and PASTE this riff of 4 measures back into your Original style.

[Hugh Tyros 4]

Drake,

I can see that you have been using STYLE CREATOR to 'adjust' STYLES for quite a while now!  It seems to me that you too prefer to do things 'hands on' with your keyboard rather than use some computer program and put notes in on a laptop.

On your YouTube Channel you often say, "I am using a custom song style for this song which I made using the parts from various other Yamaha styles."  Someone once said to me that all Yamaha keyboard players sound the same as they use the same 'default' STYLES from their keyboards and after a while you get to know what the backing tracks sound like.  Hence saying that we all sound the same.  But the way you mix and match your STYLES using PARTS from other Styles, and putting in your own 'riffs' means that your 'backings' always sound different to anybody else's.

And thank you for posting how one can play and record a riff correctly only the one time and then expand it to play over 4 measures.  I personally don't have a problem with playing a riff over 4 measures, and find that there are slight variations in the other bars when I do that .. variations that I would want to keep.  I never QUANTIZE anything I do either, as that will put everything I play 'regimented' to the beat, and I don't want that.

I was interested to see how you got to that 'hidden' BASIC screen .. moving across to the ASSEMBLY tab and then moving back again.  I had also discovered this second BASIC screen, but for a different reason .. and I hadn't discovered your way of doing it.  When you load STYLE CREATOR and set it up to RECord into one of the PARTS, you see this:



The problem then arises that there is no SAVE on this screen!    This is because the SAVE is on the other (hidden) BASIC screen!

I found I could get to that just by pressing the EXIT button.



You then get that second BASIC screen where you can SAVE your work.



And if one wanted to get back to that original BASIC screen, you do that by pressing the REC CH .. and you're back to square one.

I'm sure people are saying, "Why bother to do all this?".  As I said earlier in my topic, it all depends on how one wants to play something.  Do you find a STYLE that will 'fit' your song?  Or do you have something in your head that you want to include in your song?

I have been wanting to play My Way (you have already heard a bit of it) .. but wanted to play it 'my way'.  I had said at one point that a good place to look for a setup is in the Music Finder .. and sure enough, this song is in there.



The STYLE set up for you is EpicBallad.  I suspect that this will give me the 'Frank Sinatra Way'.  I have had a go at playing it, but have deliberately changed the MAIN VARIATION from A to B to C to D (together with the OTS VOICES) every few bars in order to hear what sounds we have been given (wouldn't normally change the sound after just a few bars!).

This is what I have come up with.

My Way - Music Finder Way

I'm sure many of you would come up with an amazing Frank Sinatra "My Way" .. but this setup is not me.

I had put together ModBigBandBld3 (with my 'Arpeggio'); and ModBigBandBld4 (with my 'Repeating Piano'), so I'll use those.  And the Voices I have chosen are BreathySax (a SA2 Voice .. so I can get it to 'slide' up to the note with help from my foot pedal); and Trombone.

My Way - played 'my way'

Hugh

Edit (by Hugh): Images are now LINKED to a new 'cloud' storage.  Text has not been edited.