GENOS DAW Control

[vadesriux]

Glad to see Yamaha programmers introduced full DAW control on the Montage. The request now from Genos users is for Yamaha to do the same with the GENOS.

At this precise moment I am saving to buy a GENOS. Since it is such an expensive instrument I have no other choice. And I come from a DAW environment, cutting, copying etc.
The reason I am saving for a Genos is to replace the cutting and copy with simply playing and enjoying free play with auto accompaniment and rythms all running at the same time.

But of course, there comes a time when you will want to save your song with greater accuracy than the internal (simple) sequencer of the Genos. And that is where being able to use Logic or Ableton to save and mount your song is invaluable. It is a much more graphic way of saving a song.

So since Yamaha is listening and reading from this forum, lets add lots of requests for Genos DAW integration so hopefuly Yamaha listen and come with a new upgrade for DAW control.

[pjd]

Hello vadesriux --

Thanks for making the suggestion! Count me in. I'm not a Logic user, but do dip into Ableton Live occasionally.

Welcome to the Forum!

-- pj

[Joe H]

...  And that is where being able to use Logic or Ableton to save and mount your song is invaluable. It is a much more graphic way of saving a song.

So since Yamaha is listening and reading from this forum, lets add lots of requests for Genos DAW integration so hopefuly Yamaha listen and come with a new upgrade for DAW control.

Unfortunately those two DAWs don't offer instrument Voice Definition files for Yamaha keyboards like Cubase does.  Since Yamaha owns Steinberg, we can expect full support not only for the Genos, but many PSRs and the Tyros line as well.  This forum has been asking for Cubase / arranger integration for more than a decade now.

Joe H

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I am finding Cubase very stable

Bandlab has too many niggles

Mixcraft good for vst and simplicity

All the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

John, I too use Cubase. So far, I record all MIDI inside the Genos, and then import the MIDI files to Cubase for editing. Reason: I can't figure out the signal routing so I can record directly into Cubase from the Genos. If it's so wonderful, how would you feel about writing out the procedure for all of us who are having trouble getting the Genos to play nice with Cubase? So far, no one who knows the secret has been willing to step up to the plate and do it. I offer my services as a technical writer to finalize the document. What do you say?

[ton37]

+1


Now I work with Cubase with a midi-controller (i.e. Nektar Panorama). I wonder if the Genos can also (easily) be used as a midicontroller for Cubase, meaning: how far is the integration Genos-Cubase. That would be very very interesting to hear/read from those who have done this or are working with Genos & Cubase.

[vadesriux]

From users experience with Cubase, which is the closest DAW to Yamaha, in this case Genos, it is clear that there is not yet any kind of DAW integration, not even with Cubase noneless other leading DAW's.

One more reason to keep this topic going and hopefuly wait for Yamaha to release a Genos update that resolves DAW integration with Genos in a simple and effective way. Something that to this date doesn not happen.

[Joe H]

Lee,

Maybe these videos will help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvT6zXOb5W0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsh__Bj1Ryw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axr3GbBCDQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbCqFek76ew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUrOcmgVvhY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyuxEfDk_hA

Joe H

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi 

vadesriux


Genos Integrates with cubase 100%
It Is the operator that has to get their heads around using It
All takes time
All the best
John

[vadesriux]

Hi John

Can you use Genos faders to raise or lower simultaneously track volumes? No. And this is just one simple task concerning DAW integration. There are many other tasks which Genos at the present moment cant handle.
We need full DAW integration as the Montage 2.5 update has brought to Montage.

[ton37]

Apparently there are 2 opinions in the last 2 posts hereabove, about  the definition of 'full/less integration' of Genos with Cubase  . If it is 'true' what @Vadesriux wrote it is rather disturbing that Genos misses the basic working/functionality with the knobs and faders on the Genos with Cubase (like midicontrollers do)
Of course it would be very pleasant/required that Genos could get an 'update' to work flawless with Cubase, but I wonder if that's going to happen? In that case I agree with the message in @Vadesriux openings-post.

Anyway thanks for everyone's appreciated input in this (for me) interesting post.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

You can still get around those problems converting tracks to wave and use a controller which are not that expensive or draw the different things on an automation lane.

It would be nice to twiddle a knob or slider on the Genos and see It do the job In Cubase
all the best
John

[ton37]

hi John, as I wrore in my earlier post I do have a midicontroller (a Nektar Panorama) whichI use for Cubase. I was wondering if the knobs and sliders
on the Genos could replace the use of an (external) midicontroller.
Writing this, maybe it is not practical. The knobs/sliders are for the (internal) tuning of the Genos, while an external midicontroller is for easy handing the workflow in Cubase.
regards Ton

[vadesriux]

Genos for sure has enough knobs on its panel board that could function (if the possibility is offered by Yamaha) as REC, PLAY, RWD, etc. They are already labeled as that !

Also faders and rotary knobs could easily be assigned (at least) to control track Volume / Panning, including assigning those to VST/AU plugins, like Yamaha did with Montage.

So it is only a matter of Yamaha programming team to find that this kind of integration is being suficiently requested by a large number of users, to decide for this implementation.

Due to the difficulty many Genos users are finding in recording directly to a DAW (it is achievable but far from being user friendly or quick), and taking into account that this kind of instrument is famous for being a "quickly composing / playing / saving tool", I think we might just have the luck of seeing this happen in the near future.
Fingers crossed 
And keep posting !!!

[Lee Batchelor]

From John 

I am getting my head around cubase slowly Yes ,I record all the midi into the Genos song recorder and then transport that to or Import to Cubase for a tidy up.

John, you're doing exactly what I do. From your original post I thought you were able to connect the Genos to a good sound interface, open Cubase, arm several MIDI tracks, and then start recording while playing the Genos. Apparently this is not so. In fact it sounds like it's possible but you need to be a Yamaha Genos engineer to make it happen. This is wrong! We need an easy to use integration tool that works with any DAW.

I think Yamaha created the Montage and its predecessors for those who play live and record in the studio, and the arranger for those who just play. Turns out, the Genos is one hell of a tool for recording but the method is a deep dark secret. Come on Yamaha, open your doors for us creative recording types!!!!

Thanks for the links, Joe. I shall check them out.

For what it's worth, Cubase and the Genos are still not fully integratable with the current tools. I don't consider having to spend hours editing the various parameters in the List Editor of Cubase, a high usability tool. The arranger keyboard has never been easy to record. I can remember being completely stumped trying to record a simple PSR keyboard into Sequencer Plus (A DOS driven DAW of the early 90s) and never achieving it. Without this integration, we are barely using a third of what the Genos can really do.

A proper external style creation tool would be in order, as well. All Yamaha has to do is stop counting the profits they make by selling styles. Style creation is a real craft and only a few can do it properly. I don't think those few could put a dent in Yamaha's profits. Where's that tool???!!!

[Joe H]

The links I posted above are basic setup for Montage which show us how Cubase /Montage Integration works.

Here is a series of tutorials on Cubase itself. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k_XevQ1kJ4&list=PL8hp7Ohapfw219CkCBvXGTxq69fPTFn1e

If you don't have Cubase 8 Pro... just type in a search for the Cubase version tutorial you are looking for.

Joe H

[Joe H]

Getting closer...

Here are some videos where people have figured out how to integrate the Genos with Cubase.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Cubase+and+Genos

Joe H

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Joe! I'm really busy with gigs at the moment, but I'll check those videos out when things slow down a bit.

As a side note, I played a senior's barbecue yesterday with my vocalist buddy, Bob. He sings lead, plays acoustic guitar, and I provide harmonies and Genos backgrounds. After the show, four ladies stayed behind and asked me to play some instrumentals. They were absolutely astounded by the sound of the Genos. This NEVER happened with the T5. So, those who declare that it's strictly in the hands of the player, are dead wrong! Yes, you must know how to play, but the keyboard DOES make a difference.

But I digress.....

[Pino]

Re:EMC Styleworks latest update should be out very soon according to Klaus

Hi John

Don't bother with that expensive EMC Styleworks with very iffy results
Now that you are familiar with Cubase it's very easy to make song styles

Get yourself a copy of StyleMagic and that's it
Your in full control
It's not rocket science

Pino

[Lee Batchelor]

Great videos, Joe! Phil uses the Montage, but he answers questions and mysteries in Cubase that are common to both Genos and Montage.

One big downside: now I want a Montage !!

Thanks...

[Joe H]

Re:EMC Styleworks latest update should be out very soon according to Klaus

Hi John

Don't bother with that expensive EMC Styleworks with very iffy results
Now that you are familiar with Cubase it's very easy to make song styles

Get yourself a copy of StyleMagic and that's it
Your in full control
It's not rocket science

Pino

I agree! And I would add if you plan to make styles, Style Creator Assembly is an easy way to go.

Joe H

[Joe H]

Lee,

I think watching Phil's Montage / Cubase tutorials given me some inspiration for creating styles real fast with Cubase.

1. Set Cubase to MIDI Channel ANY

2. Set the loop markers for 2, 4, or 8 bars and start the loop and record each style sequentially

3. Set R1 to channel  9 and then 10 to create two drums parts.

4. Set R1 to channel 11 and record the bass

5. Set R1 to channel 12 and record the chord 1 part

     :
     :
     :

9. Set R1 to channel 16 and record the phrase 2 part

Stop after recording each channel to select the next channel and Voice. Start the loop again playing all previous recorded channels/parts and play along recording the next channel.

Disclaimer: All the above is hypothetical.  I'll see if I can find some time to test it out. Unlike the Montage, it's not so easy to select a channel for R1 like on the Montage.  But I could create 8 custom MIDI configurations to make it easier.

 

Joe H

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks Joe. It sounds easy but there's that Genos->Cubase integration that is nowhere as smooth as with the Montage. I too will give it a shot. I'd really like to do another album with my music buddy, Bob. We've done four in the past 25 years, with not bad sales. We'd like to do one more before we pack it in, and become strictly home players with our respective wives and families.

Recording is one thing but style creation is another great idea. What do you think of StyleMagic? Is it easy to use with the Genos? Is it easier than Cubase? Worth the money?

[vadesriux]

I have had a Yamaha Motif XS6 for 2 years, and more recently a Montage 6 with me for a trial period.

One of the most impressive things about these latest top of the range Yamaha keyboards is the keybed. The FSX yamaha keybed is a real joy to play chords effortless even going to the top of the black keys, something that even the best TP9/s Fatar keyboards struggle to do.

For instance when I have had the excellent NI Komplete Kontrol MK2 for trial in my home, I found the Fatar keybed played beautifully on the white keys but when I had to reach for the top of the black keys the stiffness was such that I had to send the keyboard back to the shop. Such was the difference it made to me...
So this apparently simple thing - to be able to play into the black keys without having to make much force (same with the white keys), is something you can only find in the best digital pianos with weighted keys, and interesting enough not on Yamaha digital pianos! But that is another discussion :0)

Anyway, when trying the Montage, and when I played the Motif, always reached a point when I would want to instantly have a beat playing, a bass changing with my left hand chords in real time. It is possible to do this on these keyboards, but envolves lots of programming, buttons and menu diving.
On arranger keyboards like Tyros or Genos, this is almost effortless, meaning you spend a lot more time actually playing than programming. And this particular thing is the key for self enjoyment with music - playing, not programming.

Ask any musician if he loves the most playing live / in his studio jamming along or instead recording his songs.... If he trully loves music he will invariably answer for the first option.
And this is exactly the main reason why I (who always thought arrangers would only do for marriage parties or cheesy live presentations), was forced to recognize that arrangers are so famous - essentialy - because they alow the player to PLAY and have fun ! Plain and simple.

I know that this deviates from my starting topic but noneless is a much valid thing to think about. Will I want to spend my hours playing and having fun or programming ultra sofisticated songs that take days to put together, having to draw with your mouse THOUSANDS of MIDI notes inside a DAW piano roll ?.....
I trully give credit for some beatifully composed songs made exclusively with a DAW, but lets face it: it is not for everyone. Much less to those as myself who already work with a computer from 9 to 5 every day at work.....

And again, we will get back to the begnning: having a way to record our musics and add some other sound inside a DAW - in the most simple way - will be a relief in every way to players, who quickly will be able to record their songs inside a laptop, and get back to playing and composing which is after all the essence of music. Not having to deal with computers for hours and hours on end.

But... to each its own. As always.

[vadesriux]

Thank you John for your incentive!
I am saving to buy a Genos yes but even being a little bit less expensive here in Portugal now, it still costs 3250 euros! It is a lot albeit being a marvelous instrument.

The dealer even lets me pay 2000 euros in cash + 10 monthly payments up to the total price. Whitout interests (extra taxes) at all.

My love is for electronic music yes, like Jean Michel Jarre or Mike Oldfiel / Vangelis do. And I see that Genos can serve perfectly well also for this type of music. Also love new age music composing and again the Yamaha pad sounds + beautiful accompaniment and calm beats is perfect for this. But above all to be able to play without having to turn my head constantly to the computer + mouse set.

So... In antecipation to be able to order mine! Fingers crossed.

[ton37]

Oh Boy, nice price drop in Portugal. I just trade in my T5 for a Genos and the trade-in value was very acceptable for me. I'm now spending 3 day's in a row in a hot attic room with a smile on my face playing with the Genos. Just loving it. Is there a world outside...??

[markstyles]

I have been using Logic Pro with Tyros and now Genos for many years.  I created a simple 'midi control' sequence. I installed it in my project template, so it is always there..  Its also easy to import into any project at any time.  This consists any CC events you wish to use.. You can also use commands not available from Genos kbd itself, like attack, decay, release, etc.

image of midi controllsequence https://app.box.com/s/d4096mq0gb1uw4epp6dc

here is midi control sequence https://app.box.com/s/z3ek8mcbkh9wekrd4eza

You can easily to modify this sequence to add any of the 127 CC data commands.

Although not as elegant as a pull down menu, to get the exact patch you want. You are assured of always getting the exact same patch and sound as you orginally intended.

For this to work you must fill in the MSB/LSB/Prog that you want to use.  In the Genos, you can make those numbers visible by turning the feature on from kbd. Logic uses programs from 0 - 127, Yamaha uses CC 1 - 128. so you must subtract 1 to get the correct patch.

Logic can record, change, and transmit sy*** events which would allow you to set up DSP effects. But it is too complex for me to figure out.  I use Logics 'notepad' feature' to write down any info I want to keep, like the list and order of DSPs to be assigned to any midi channel.

[vadesriux]

Thank you very much Mark for the trouble you had posting your method of working with <Genos - Logic> which happens to be the DAW I also use.

But I have to admit, most of us (me included  ), dont have a clue where to start implementing the method you use. It is not straight forward for the majority of us.

One more reason to ask for YAMAHA's update in order to allow Genos to seemingly work with the main DAWs available today.

Thank you for your post!