Genos - Is There Something I Am Missing?

[panos]

Is Korg about to release the "Lord Voldemort" series or something? 
If there wasn't Korg to keep up the competition, Yamaha's keyboards wouldn't be that good.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[keynote]

Here you go Abby... Tyros 5 with extras.

Yamaha Tyros 5 for sale at A&C Hamilton UK

I have played the Tyros 5 and it is a great sounding keyboard. Since it is a Tyros it will be easy for you to setup and also easy to navigate the menus. You will also save a lot of money over the more expensive Genos. The Genos is a rather new concept compared with the Tyros series so it would take a while to familiarize yourself with it. A&C Hamilton also has free shipping on items over £100.

PS: It seems you are struggling to justify the cost of buying a Genos and I can understand your conundrum.  Since I too have owned a Tyros 3 I can tell you straight up the Genos sounds a lot better than the Tyros 3 and also better than the Tyros 5 although the difference isn't night and day. One of the big improvements on the Genos is the new 32-bit digital to analog converters which makes it sound more polished and indeed more professional sounding. Of course you need to listen to the Genos through a quality sound system in order to hear and understand its full capability. Having said that the Tyros 5 is still one of the best sounding arrangers currently on the market and A&C Hamilton also includes a 1 year warranty and free lifetime support if you ever should need it.

Mike

[DonM]

One thought...there ARE plenty of styles available for Korg.  And it has a midi-to-style converter built in that actually works very well. 
You can get plenty of support on the Korg forum and it is even monitored by Korg people. 

[Pianoman]

Thank you Mike for your suggestion.

A T5 (61 keys) is something I'm considering, because of familiarity.
But also because I was very impressed by the T4.

My conundrum is more about sound than it would be about ustifying the price of
the Genos.
l get to deduct the Genos from ny taxes anyway, if I decide to buy it.

Better to buy something nice for myself, than to give money that I've sweated for
to the taxman.

I'm trying to make the Genos sound nice.

To be fair and honest, I have hardly listened to the voices.
I have listened to as many as I could, but 90% of the morning was dedicated to
listening to the various Rythm sections (Styles) and tweaking the EQ and Compressor.

Styles is basically what I buy arrangers for, especially the drums.
And I  just can't seem to get the drums to sound right.

In my performances I practically only use Saxes, a couple of favourite Guitars, and Brass.
Of the hundreds of songs that I play, I only use Organs in 5 songs, and Strings in maybe
another 5 songs.

It would be great to see some more EQ settings from members here.
I would love to try out as many as possible.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Al Ram]

One thought...there ARE plenty of styles available for Korg.  And it has a midi-to-style converter built in that actually works very well. 
You can get plenty of support on the Korg forum and it is even monitored by Korg people.

I really like the Korg styles . . .    thanks

[Pianoman]

Hello Don.

Yes, I actually saw a demonstrator do the converting on YouTube.
I remember asking you a while back about your experiences with the Korg

I think it was via PM though.
I didn't want to mention the Korg here because it seems to upset some people.

The weight of the Korg would not be a problem for me.
As you know, I move around 185 Kilos of gear rwice everyday,  transporting it, setting it up,
then breaking down, and taking it all home. So a few more kilos won't matter.

I am seriously considering the Korg, as well as the T5.

I rather like the vocal Ooohs and Doo Daps of the T5, in oldie Rock n Roll
as well as in Brazilian styles, plus the Scat style for Al Jarreau's "Roof Garden"

I think that you, doing what I do, will understand better.

I don't have much use for a lot of fancy sounds, besides most top arrangers generally
have nice voices anyway.

I'm more interested in a nice slapping Bass and Rythm section.
I heard some nice PA4X Funk being demonstrated on a French YouTube channel
the other day, quite impressive.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[valio7771]

Hey Abby,

Here's my opinion on what I would do if I where you, if in doubt what to be the upgrade after Tyros 3.

I worked actively on stage at least 5 days a week, with my old 9000Pro as my main keyboard for strait 18 years (and it never ever failed on me, even once), and I also came to a point where I wanted to upgrade for something new and fresh. I bought Korg PA900 which was an amassing value for money keyboard, but I end up working with it for only about 6 month and than sold it, because I didn't like how Korg organised the workflow with their keyboards for live performace, although there where number of advantages over Yamaha in terms of how can you 'mould' it to your taste by giving you the freedom to edit and rearrange all the sounds and styles, and easily get lots of new ones in it for FREE, but I guess that all those good sides of Korg weren't enough to hook me up for it.

So about 3 years ago, I found really nice offer for second hand Tyros 5 and I bought it. The jump between 9000Pro and Tyros 5 is massive in terms of sound and features, and in the beginning I also didn't liked how some things sounded and where organised in it, but in overall, I felt like I was swimming back in my own waters (after the brief Korg 'relationship'). I still miss some things that I've been used in my 9000Pro, but I adapted to the few changes fairly quickly, and I'm a very happy man now.

Now if you allow me, without me trying to over-impose my opinion over your, here's a couple of friendly advices that I also took from other people that knew more than I:

1)
Don't overuse EQ and Compressor in the pursue for better sound. There is a golden rule in sound shaping...less is always more! Those EQ's are there to compensate for the frequency imperfections in the sound reproducer, whether is your headphones or speakers in combination with the acoustics of room that you're listening it in, you're not fixing imperfections in the keyboard this way. Yamaha have employed sound engineers that have brains bigger than Jupiter, which job is to make sure that their keyboards sounds at it's optimal in their Neutral/Flat EQ settings. I know it takes time to adjust if you're used to heavy EQ usage, it's kind of a bad habit like smoking but trust me, if you give your self a chance to listen to your new keyboard the way it comes out of the factory, you'll realize that it makes sense to be this way and you'll thank me later. I used to be like that before, and now I'm very careful and aware when and how much EQ intervention is needed, mainly because I know my speakers frequency response, and with only few minor changes I can adapt the EQ to the room I'm playing in.

2)
Compressor you use ONLY if you look for certain 'colour' in a particular song/genre of music, as it's name suggests, it compresses the sound by narrowing the dynamic range of the sound in order to attenuate only certain range of audio signal by suppressing another. So in overall your sound may become more punchy, but it will be in expense for expressiveness and the dynamic pallet of the sound in total. The compressor (as part of the total sum of the sound) is very commonly used in the modern EDM music, usually in it's extreme settings because that's the sound that they are looking for, very prominent bass and kick drum that makes everything else to 'dip' with each kick, and that's so much for the dynamics in the electronic music (if at all). Philharmonic orchestra, or a simple R&R band is like a breathing organism compared to that, and if you get rid of the dynamics in the band, everything starts to sound louder but dry, bland and unnatural. So, be wise using this option as well. Using compressor in a individual instrument/part is a whole another subject, but I digress...so I'll stop here.

In overall:
Do not try to fool your ears with fancy EQ gymnastics, and give your self some time to adapt to your new keyboard (whatever it is) by listening to it as it designed to sound by those very very highly skilled audio engineers.
Don't expect your new keyboard to instantly sound better than your previous one, you're just too used to the sound of your old one and it takes time for your ears to adapt to the new one.
If you find that Tyros 3 drums sound better than the Genos drums, although I can't agree with you on that under any circumstances, than maybe you don't have to buy it.
I think Tyros 5 may be a better and much more financially friendly alternative for you, since it's still a Tyros, and there are only few major differences, you may adapt much faster to it.
Also, I think that upgrading from Tyros 3 to Tyros 5 or Genos makes more sense, than from Tyros 5 to Genos since there is not such a big jump in generations and not a lot of new features for your buck, that's why I'll probably wait another 3-4 years for Genos 2 or however they decide to name it and see if it's worth doing it.

No bad feelings here, just my opinion and friendly advice.

Stay classy!

Valentin

[Gunnar Jonny]

.......  There is a golden rule in sound shaping...less is always more! .........

Nice post Valentin.
Btw,
the rule quoted above, is the same I was lucky enough to learn many years ago. 

[Eric, B]

Very well put Valentine.
Thank you. Fully agree.
Our ears have to get used to a new board for a while before we can fully appreciate it.
Especially the Genos as it sounds so different ...
Eric

[Toril S]

You keep us in suspense, Abby I like that! I would stick to Yamaha, and keep the T3 as a backup, - and then take a leap of feith to the Genos

[valio7771]

Excuse me everyone if I'm getting to technical here, but I couldn't resist myself to throw some more light and explain myself with simple words, by taking one example from this post, considering EQ.

Again, I want to stress enough the fact that with the example that I'm giving, I'm NOT trying to ridicule the person by exposing his 'mistakes', and showing myself as a 'superior' to him....NO, this is NOT my intention!!! If those settings work for him, and he likes how his keyboard sounds, I'm absolutely fine with that, and I'm not judging anybody.
Everybody is free to ignore what I'm about to say, but if this ends up helping somebody reading it, I'll be more than happy that I helped someone in some way, so let's crack on.

I've saw John early explained those EQ settings from the picture below, and he did pretty good and simple explanation, but I want to elaborate a little bit more on that.


Starting from left to right:

1)
We see that there is +8dB over 140Hz - even the cheapest and crappiest 10" speakers can easily reproduce at least 80Hz at very high sound levels, no problem. So there is no practical reason to give so much gain mid-bass frequency, as long as you're working with speakers not bigger than 6". Such setting may also be very unhealthy for the subwoofers since this is approximately the highest frequency that a sub can reproduce, and if you're pushing it all night, every night like this, you can seriously damage your subs. So I would avoid those settings as any cost, and dial it at around 45-70Hz for 12" subs, 40-60Hz for 15" subs, and around 32-40Hz for 18"subs. and respectively +/-2 dB depending on the room, IF NEEDED !

Important !!! What is Q?
Q-stands for Q factor, that determines how 'wide' the resonator is in relation to the centre frequency....sounds complicated? Trust me it's not, if you let me rephrase it in simple words.
If you imagine the shape of two mountains, one has very pointy top and very steep sides, and another that has very rounded and wide top and gently sloped sides. If you draw an imaginary line through the middle of the mountain, from the highest point to the bottom, this is your frequency 'centre'. The bigger the Q number is, the wider the sides of the mountains are...the smaller the number, the mountain is thinner and sharper.
If you translate those shapes on the frequency graph, the 'mountain' becomes the so called resonator/oscillator. The bigger the Q number, the wider the resonator is, so takes over the neighbouring frequencies around it's centre frequency, and wider band of frequencies are 'involved' in the following EQ process, and vice versa with the smaller Q number.
*EDIT few days after the original post, as reminded by Lee Batchelor:
Critical mistake!!! It's the exact opposite of what I just said. The higher the Q number, the thinner the band wave is, and vice versa, so read everything below in reverse relationship.

2)
+9dB over 315Hz with 0.7Q - here is where I would probably dial mid-bass from 120-200Hz and start to consider which diapason of those frequencies my PA in it's entirety can cope safely under high SPL(Sound Pressure Levels).

3)
-6dB over 560Hz with 4.3Q - so what I see here is fairly wide band of frequencies that are turned down, I can't guess the reason why is it so.
From here on, I can't give you any advices what you should dial, since there is no such thing as 'universal' EQ settings that will sound wicked on anything, in fact...there is such setting, and this is FLAT which I'll encourage everyone to chose.

4)
+4dB over 800Hz with 6.6Q - I'm starting to notice a certain Q pattern here, the higher the frequencies go, the wider the Q becomes until they basically overlap after about 3.0kHz all the way to 10kHz, but at the same time less and less gain is added to each frequency, otherwise the overall sound would have been even more tinny and harsh in the mid/mid-high diapason.

5)
-7db over 1.3kHz with 8.4Q - human hearing is very sensitive in this frequency band and it is easily perceived even by the people who have difficulty in hearing. Again, we see very wide Q band which has been turned down because is very piercing.

6)
-8dB over 3.6kHz with 11Q - Q band is getting wider, and it resulted in significant intervention over the amount of dB needed to 'subdue' the thinning of the sound.

7)
-7dB over 5.6kHz with widest possible Q - again, we're keep adding more and wider band of high frequencies, but than, we have to turn them down because it sounds thin and high pitched. And this is still mid-high diapason where human hearing is still very sensitive.

8 )
-6dB over 10kHz (I'm surprised how the keyboard didn't pop-up a message "System Error. Run out of Q"...just kidding
Here is where I'll advice everyone to double check your HF(high-frequency) driver specifications, in order to dial this setting to your specific speaker. Adult man/woman above 70 y.o. with averagely good hearing, will struggle to hear anything above 12kHz (there is always exceptions of coarse), although it is scientifically proven that women in general have slight advantage over man in this aspect.

Noticed something curious in this order and gaping of frequencies?
From knob 3 to 7 there is exactly 10kHz frequency range in total (from 560Hz to 5.6kHz) , and since the Q is quite wide in overall, so there is not a single frequency gap at all along from knob 5 to 8, and than there is massive, nearly 5kHz frequency gap ONLY between knob 7 to 8. That could have been spread much more reasonably so there is no big frequency gaps, and the overall sound would have been much fuller and richer...anyway, this is just an example.

So, how to conclude all this...simply use Flat EQ in 90% of the time, because it's practical, true to ears, convenient and very professional.
Know your PA, and use the EQ as a chef uses salt...to much of it spoils the dish. Use EQ to fix imperfections in speakers, not in keyboards.

I wish everyone lot's of fun playing with your keyboards, whether professionally or at home.

Yours,

Valentin

[DonM]

Well said and very perceptive.  EQ, as you said, is a very personal matter, but extremes should be avoided.  As I've said for years, boosting every frequency is simply turning up the volume.

[terryB]

Thanks Valentin for that detailed and informative explanation of EQ settings.
I tried the settings that Abby used (as in your post above) and they did not suit my surroundings at all. In fact they knocked all higher frequency sound, took out the crispness in the drums and produced a totally 'muzzy' sound.

I have tried several sets of settings from previous posts, plus adding to the Yamaha preset settings, but as Don says you are just increasing the volume. So now I will just use the best sounding preset and set the volume to what I want to hear.

Cheers
Terry

[Lee Batchelor]

The bigger the Q number, the wider the resonator is, so takes over the neighbouring frequencies around it's centre frequency, and wider band of frequencies are 'involved' in the following EQ process, and vice versa with the smaller Q number.

I believe you have that backwards, Valentin. A wave with a Q factor of 1 has a wider base than the base of a wave that has a Q factor of 2 (for example). It's an inverse relationship. The higher the Q factor, the skinnier the wave. See the picture.

Great explanation my friend! Thanks for posting all that info.




[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tankdave]

I was wondering about the Q value explaination? 

After reading all this I had an experiment and the low Q values on the Genos do make more notable difference.

So we saying that the lower Q-values are indeed the "wider" ones

[Lee Batchelor]

That's correct, Dave.

[panos]

I found a couple of videos for the "Q" value.
Hope they are helpful with the graphics,because these technical things in a foreign language for some of us, is giving us a really hard time 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ikzPfIXRmQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDAgY6ZEAds

[tyrosman]

the only way I see this Abby you Either Buy it or Don't Genos is a fantastic Keyboard all Round

[Pianoman]

Thank you Valentin.

Your explanation is very helpful. And thank you Lee for the graph as well.
The EQ settings I posted belong to StephenM, which I used as starting point, after
trying the preset EQs of the Genos, which did not satisfy me.

I then kept adding my own tweaks to see if that would make the instrument give me a
sound that I might like.

Lee wanted to see the settings of StephenM, that's why I posted them.

I would love to see which settings you use, if you don't mind posting a
picture or screen grab.

I would like to try them.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

the only way I see this Abby you Either Buy it or Don't Genos is a fantastic Keyboard all Round

No doubt, and that is a general and accepted attitude on this site,  like  enjoy what you have and don't worry about  money...because once you're dead, 'you can't take it with you.'

But  is not  the the whole idea of this site is to give us information so that we can make an intelligent decision based on verified details. I have no difficulty with your statement "Genos is a fantastic Keyboard..."  its the last two words that I  am so far not sure about and seriously contemplating whether I should wait for Genos II.
For different players different things are important. He who does not have to re-tweak 200 midi files the Genos-way has less to ponder.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[mikf]

Kaarlo
You are correct of course, this forum is here to inform and help re these arrangers. However, given the depth of research and soul searching that some have over a $4000 dollar keyboard makes we wonder how long it takes to make a decision about a car ... or a house
Mike

[valio7771]

I believe you have that backwards, Valentin. A wave with a Q factor of 1 has a wider base than the base of a wave that has a Q factor of 2 (for example). It's an inverse relationship. The higher the Q factor, the skinnier the wave. See the picture.

You are absolutely right, Lee

We all make mistakes, and I did a rookie mistake by putting everything other way round, and got carried away without even realising it.
It was passing 03:00 at night when I was writing that thing, and I was already sleepy. I'll go back and edit the post in order not to confuse the readers here.

Thank you for correction !

Cheers

Valentin

[pjd]

Oh, dear, "cars." We shouldn't go down that rat-hole, again. 

Two things make me an analytical, deliberative consumer: The price of the good and/or how long I intend to keep and use it. Genos ticks both of those criteria. I didn't deliberate very long when I bought an E443!

Some folks love the chase (analysis) more than the catch. Sometimes planning a vacation is more fun and satisfying than the actual trip. 

All the best -- pj

[Linson]

One thought...there ARE plenty of styles available for Korg.  And it has a midi-to-style converter built in that actually works very well. 
You can get plenty of support on the Korg forum and it is even monitored by Korg people.

Anybody can shed some light on the Choral voices in Genos.  Is Choral voices in Genos is better than Korg PA4x? or it is almost same.

[travlin-easy]

I would purchase a Genos tomorrow, but it would just be one more expensive item my children would be burdened with sell when I die. I already have more things than most folks ever dream of and I told them that if they find any money remaining in bank account when I pass, I must have made a mistake, or died earlier than anticipated.

Have fun, everyone,

Gary

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Some folks love the chase (analysis) more than the catch. Sometimes planning a vacation is more fun and satisfying than the actual trip. 

THANKS   !!!!!!  that hit without hurting [/i]!

[markstyles]

I've had my Genos for quite a few months..  I was thinking of keep the T5.. There are some sounds on it I really liked.  Because of limited room and finances I sold my T5 less than a day after posting on Graigslist.  I unboxed it, plugged it in.. I had already forgotten how to get to certain menus. I kept trying to press the faceplate.. It took me a while to adjust to the Geno's sound, but it sounds completely fine to me now, except most patches have way too much reverb for my taste.. Easily rectified.

I sold it for $2200, to move fast.  This guy bought it for his blind brother coming to USA for the first time from Hungary tonite. He has wanted a Tryos for a couple of years, but, I guess money was an issue.  The guy said, he knew his brother would get so excited and probably start to cry..  I have always had a 'personal relationship' with my keyboards, and tried to sell them to someone, who I felt really wanted it and would treat it with respect.  I feel it now has a great new home.

Someone did that for me many decades ago.. They could see how bad I wanted some keyboard, and lowered the price somewhat so I could afford it.  It was a feeling  of mutual good will.

[travlin-easy]

The only reason I have not purchased a Genos is because I no longer appear on stage as a live performer/entertainer. If nasty health issues had not forced me to retire from a live that I dearly loved, I would have purchased a Genos the very first day they became available, though I would have loved to have a 61 key model instead of 72 - just a lot easier for me to play.

I finally got to play a Genos live and in person at the local music store. By every measure, IMO, it is the most fantastic arranger keyboard on the market today, especially for a live performer.

Good luck,

Gary :cool:

[markstyles]

I have used the Tyros 3 - 5, and Genos in a recording studio set-up for quite a few years now . I have an RME interface with top notch A-D and D-A converters. I play thru Genelec 40's  (pristine quality)..

In general I have left Tyros's and Genos at their factory settings.. I usually record each Genos track to an individual track in Logic Pro..  I occasionally use individual EQ and limiting, compressing on some tracks.  I have found Yamaha to be the most aware company of music kbds, in regarding to mixing.. An individual track, may not 'pop' out at you. But when you mix it in with 8 or more other tracks from Genos.. They blend together and are very homogenous.

I agree with all the reverb complainers. Way too much for me.  And yes, some people feel they must EQ and change settings for their equipment.  The level of professionalism in the EQ's limiting of Genos or Tyros is equal to about 10 years of a recording engineer's experience..  My first dozen years working in commercial recording studios.  I radically EQ's everything. Usually making a bigger mess. of course speakers, and mikes were not as refined as the ones today..

Yes, you should EQ your patches to sound good on your system.

When I first got the Genos, I really did not care for the EQing of it. it sounded brighter and tinnier than the Tyros.. After a couple of months, I got used to the Genos sound, and now it seems fine..  If I plugged in my Tyros 5, I might think it's sounds too bassy now.  Also bear in mind, most of us are senior citizens, our high range of earring is generally shot.. A couple of years ago, I worked in a NYC nightclub.. The difference in EQ and compression, was shocking from record to record.. So ultimately we each hear differently.

Mixing (with EQing) is an art form, in which you must make a universal mix which will sound good on a number of systems, not just your home studio.. You can EQ/mix a song, which sounds great on one system, but horrible on another.. You must find the middle ground.

But ultimately one must do what needs to be done to sound good to you..

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

.....In general I have left Tyros's and Genos at their factory settings.. I usually record each Genos track to an individual track in Logic Pro.....when you mix it in with 8 or more other tracks from Genos.. They blend together and are very homogenous.

I agree with all the reverb complainers. Way too much for me.  ...... I radically EQ's everything. Usually making a bigger mess......

Yes, you should EQ your patches to sound good on your system.

When I first got the Genos, I really did not care for the EQing of it. it sounded brighter and tinnier than the Tyros..

.....  Also bear in mind, most of us are senior citizens, our high range of earring is generally shot.. A couple of years ago, I worked in a NYC nightclub.. The difference in EQ and compression, was shocking from record to record.. So ultimately we each hear differently.

Mixing (with EQing) is an art form, in which you must make a universal mix which will sound good on a number of systems, not just your home studio.. You can EQ/mix a song, which sounds great on one system, but horrible on another.. You must find the middle ground.....

EXCELLENT !!  Very valuable information, THANKS.

Cheers

Kaarlo