Stir crazy mixing

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi


My mixing is not going well at the moment

Does It matter what compression settings are in the master control area or do you have to record  in flat mode to get best results???
I have made my own EQ settings  for playing but I wonder if that interferes with a recording by giving false levels

No problem with playing ,It is just the techy side at the moment
Can anyone give any guidance to get a recording like a pro record on the Genos???. Pro recordings sound fuller and more rounded and also a lot louder without distortion.
How do they do It?? .It must be a well hidden secret!!!


Disreguard the Msb thing below as I cannot get rid of it and I solved that question myself!!


All the best
John

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[Lee Batchelor]

John, exactly what are you recording? Audio, MIDI? On the Genos or in a DAW?

Generally, I record everything with the MIDI recorder right on the Genos. I have never won the battle trying to make a Tyros or Genos play nice with Cubase 8, all because Yamaha STILL refuses to give or sell us a dedicated DAW for their arranger keyboards. They do it for the Motif and Montage!

Back on subject - record everything flat on your Genos. No compression, EQ, Effects...nothing. Import the MIDI file to your DAW and do all your editing there. Once satisfied, convert your MIDI tracks to audio. After you have everything rendered to stereo tracks, the fun begins. Process everything with your DAW. The tools are far superior to those on the Genos. How do you get those professional sounding mixes like David Foster or Michael Buble? You study for years to get good at it. You may as well ask, "How does Rembrandt paint so well?" Years of practice. Not much help, but hopefully you now have some perspective.

[andyg]

I do exactly what Lee has outlined most of the time. Record live into the keyboard's recorder - or into Cubase (never had a problem with that - but I'm so 'old school' that I think nothing of using CC messages for most things), then transfer the MIDI file into Cubase for fine editing and doing the things that are PITA on the keyboard, like tempo changes. Once that's done, Cubase then plays the MIDI tracks back one at a time, no FX at all, while recording them to stereo audio. I may at this point add in some extra VST instruments.

With everything in audio form, it's down to adding FX, mixing and mastering and I agree 100% with Lee, study, practice and experience is what counts - probably years of it. I'm OK at it but I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means.

Reminds me of the old gag (rewrite this for your own country).

A lady stops a policeman in London and asks "Excuse me officer, but how do I get to the Royal Albert Hall?" The policeman smiles and replies "Madam, you have to practice!"

[Lee Batchelor]

A lady stops a policeman in London and asks "Excuse me officer, but how do I get to the Royal Albert Hall?" The policeman smiles and replies "Madam, you have to practice!"

Re-written for Canada:

A lady stops a policeman in Ottawa and asks "Excuse me officer, but how do I get to the Prime Minister's office?" The policeman smiles and replies "Madam, anyone can do that!"

[panos]

The sound on your songs John is allready great.
When you are referring to pro recordings,are these recordings live,because if they are not then is studio recording with the mixing been done to a DAW (correcting the play note by note,velocities and other effects note by note if needed,every channel it's own mixer and it's own effects etc )

Once the recording has been sent to a DAW like Lee said, the project never returns to the keyboard if you want something as professional as possible.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
Well, I played a song all the way through using registrations Into the sequencer.
So all the lead playing is on channel 1,track 1. So all the program changes are on that track.
When you want to tidy up your recording that is quite easy.
Recording this way though can cause glitches in registration changeover and going back and forth editing.
So I think recording anything serious has to be separate tracks except the style as that sorts Itself out.
You re right there to say record all on the Genos first and convert to wave  and that is what I have been doing.
At the moment I have been experimenting in Cubase trying to change a sound and have not found a way yet.
I have the sound list in there from the Yamaha site and if selecting another sound and replaying , It always plays the first sound that you recorded on the Genos.
Well ok ,I then tried changing the MB/LSB numbers , but still no luck.
I can get on with VST better than the Genos In Cubase,but I would love everything to respond with the Genos.


All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Andy
Well ,what Lee said Is the way to go as you are also saying.
Mixing is also like saying how long is a piece of string!!


All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Panos

Thanks for your encouragement much appreciated
It sounds like a lot of hard work to get really proficient.
I will keep battling on .
It would be great If Yamha made Genos to Cubase Indepth videos.


All the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

Good stuff, John.

After you import your MIDI tracks from the Genos to Cubase, you can open the List Editor in Cubase for changing voices. You must specify three things:

LSB
MSB
Program Change

Let me know if you need further assistance.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee

I will have a look at that and get back to you .
I changed the MSB/LSB but not program change number.


All the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

No problem, John. Yes, you must do all three actions. You can get those numbers from the Data List.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee


I did a separate test by putting one sound on track 1 and saving as a song.
Changed the MSB?LSB and program change number and all works great.
When I recorded a song all way through changing registrations  with all lead sounds on track 1 , the picture changes.
To get perfect results i think you need to record each track separately except the style and all goes smooth,othewise with the straight through recording It has to be minor edits or separate the lead track passages with the virtual scissors and put them on separate tracks. That makes the MSB/LSB and program changes a lot more fussing about changing all locations.


all the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, John. And that is how I've done it in the past. Record the whole song on the (Tyros) Genos, import it to Cubase, and then record the other channels,  2 - 8. After each track is recorded, I try different voices by inserting the MSB, LSB, and Program change numbers by means of the Data List window.

The guys who can record everything from scratch just in Cubase, are nothing short of miracle workers, in my opinion. I have never got that to work, and there seems to be no documentation or help anywhere. Yamaha needs to step up to the plate and design a DAW specific to the Genos. They are always looking for a revenue stream - sell us some damn software!! Make it idiot proof, so we can just turn everything on and start recording. They can do it - they just don't have the will. Yamaha needs to stop listening to their marketing guys and listen to the thousands of users who buy their keyboards instead! They did it for Motif and Montage. Why not Genos? Is it because Elton John and Stevie Wonder don't use the Genos  ?

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee


is there a way of recording your midi tracks to separate audio tracks by routing them.
I have not found a tutorial on utube yet that can explain It

I do know that I can record one track at a time but It would be nice to have all tracks recorded to audio separately for putting the final touches to a song a little quicker.

Any Ideas there or is it down to all tracks separately.

All the best
John

ps I have to ask these questions as this has always stumped me , but now I have decided to go deeper.

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi John,

I record all my tracks in MIDI so that I can do all the musical editing. For example, note lengths, velocity, wrong notes, incorrect harmonies, quantization... After I'm completely satisfied with the music part, I convert the MIDI tracks to audio. Do you know how to do that?

Therefore, I don't fix edit anything musical in the audio tracks, except for effects, normalization, compression...

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
I do exactly what you have said. I can get to the best stage with the Genos with midi.
The thing is the mixing with the audio to get a final masterpiece 

I have Lurssen and Mastermatch and  Lp multiband eq and Lp eq and struggling to get songs all on the same par.
With mastermatch you get up to three songs that the pros make, like your favourite records and then take a reference and then play your song  about half way through.This then gives the reference wave and your wave. Press Mastermatch and supposedly bingo. It never seems to be as good as the pro reference tracks you put in. Maybe more practice may yield better results.
Nice to have a magic template if possible
Then there  is the final volume level which never seems to match the pro level song with the quality. We can limit and amplify ,but never seems to get to Utopia
Some songs seem to have that silky smooth stereo warm and clear sound which is hard to explain and hits you straight away.
It all has to do with stereo width ,eq and compression and It is finding that one thing  which is said to be experience.
These pros obviously do not want us to find out the secrets of Immortality.


All the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, John. There's the final mix, and then there's the mastering stage. I've come to believe that building the song to the audio track stage is the real easy part. The magical end mix comes from years of experience. Some guys are really good at it, while others never achieve that smooth "in your face" warm sound. Keep working at it. You'll likely develop a knack after a while. Just to be clear, I am not even a rookie when it comes to the final mix and mastering. It's very new to me. All I know is, those two things, when properly done, make a CD dreamy or pure crap .

For example: I believe Michael Buble's first albums were recorded, mixed, and mastered in Toronto. They were masterpieces! I think for his third album he went to California. It was an absolutely different sound, not even close to his original tones and nuances. The studio was likely very good, but the end product sucked! The sound had that hard, digital, and cold feel. It was a huge mistake for him to leave the studio in Toronto, IMHO. Just goes to show you, even the big smart kids can blow it !

[Joe H]

John,

However you have your Master EQ and Master Compressor set to will be at the final output and be recorded.  I always use both. But it is a subjective thing.  Trial and error.  Whatever brings the results you are looking for is the correct thing to do for you. There are really no rules about it.

Joe H

[Tommy 73]

This is my magic bullet for good recordings that translate extremely well across other audio systems ..... http://www.musictech.net/2017/12/sonarworks-reference-4-review/ https://www.sonarworks.com/?utm_source=Adwords&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=Brand_Sonarworks&utm_term=Any_trial&utm_content=Sonarworks&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqsHWBRDsARIsALPWMEPD2Inn1qw1mva6u55yv9ztLsXgo-6pNT3RD1JfZVImnNdf1fWSjBgaAnRXEALw_wcB https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/sonarworks-reference-4-standalone?amp https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/video-reviews/2017/12/10/review-sonarworks-reference-4-software

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee Joe and Tom

I got the midi right ok.
I had to take out two bits of nasty resonance with eq on the vibes and brass then used Mastermatch from Ik Multimedia.
I use Average White band  Cut the Cake as a reference and then mastermatched. I liked the quality of the sound and it seemed to match the 70/80s sound ok

What do you think of my latest effort to master
Is this up to scratch as I do not mind critic feedback whatever
https://soundcloud.com/silver-machine/bermuda-triangle

I am moving on from this as Bermuda Triangle is driving me nuts listening to It over and over.!!


What does this sound like on your systems???
All the best
John 

[Joe H]

Sounds pretty good John compared to professionally pre-recorded music, though my "sound system" is just a typical good quality pair of Altec Lansing computer speakers with sub woofer.



Joe H

[Lee Batchelor]

Wow, John! Sounds good . I played it through my Yamaha HS8 monitors with the Steinberg UR44 sound interface (no sub). Here are some minor tweaks:

1 - The second and third trumpets in the right channel could come down about 3 dB. I played lead trumpet in a swing band for 7 years .
2 - Try fattening the piano sound. I'm guessing in a range of 800 Hz to 1,500 Hz - boost that whole frequency range by about 2 dB, maybe 3 dB. Use a Quality of 1 in the parametric EQ function in Cubase.
3 - Boost the base at 60 Hz by about 3 dB and a Quality of 1.

Make those changes and re-post. Work on a copy of your original in case my changes are pure garbage. Better still, if you're willing to share the file, I'd love to give it a go. Your call.

These are wild guesses, but other than that, keep going. You're great! I love it!

[panos]

I used my 30 euros senheizer headphones and sounds just great John!!

Lee seems to be working a lot with these stuff, nice suggestions 

I would lower just a little beat the volume of the trumpets of the style playing in the right speaker for the chorus parts so when refrain comes in the would play at a higer volume as the way they sound now.

The volume of the piano at the intro I think is low so when trumpets comes in they are in much higher volume and because they are at higher frequences make the difference between them bigger.
Consider that piano the piano is on left speaker only(which is good beacuese is playing bass notes) and when styles comes in is the sound is on both speakers so there is a 50% difference between them allready.
Watch the graphic of the volume of sounds on soundcloud to see what I mean.
Also if I would lower the harmony under 0 of the intro piano and Ι would increase the brightness and reverb of it cause it soulds just a little "dry" or maybe you have chorus effect in it that doesn't fit or maybe midle range frequency is a bit higher that supposed to be.
Just saying don't take an amateur's opinion too seriously 

The only musicians I can remember that are also great at mixing are those guys which are composers,producers,they invent new sounds and new ways of making music and they called John Williams,Hans Zimmer,Mike Oldfield,JM Jarre,Vangelis etc 
The rest I guess they are going to some producer guys in studios that are not good at playing music but they are good at mixing the sounds.
So give time to experiment different things about mixing, John.

I think the magic recipes on sound mixing that work for every piece of music is like the detailed analysis on how the great composers have written their music.
Composing music is a natural talent that can be improved by hard work,experiment,practice and study.
To just use some musical (mathematical) rules without the talent, it won't get you to compose anything interesting.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee and Panos

Thats a lot to take in at the moment .
Today I am having a rest and Monday I will have a look at all of your suggestions and big thanks for your help.
I will get going again tomorrow

all the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

Sounds good, John. Happy Sunday!

[Joe H]

... The only musicians I can remember that are also great at mixing are those guys which are composers,producers,they invent new sounds and new ways of making music and they called John Williams,Hans Zimmer,Mike Oldfield,JM Jarre,Vangelis etc 
The rest I guess they are going to some producer guys in studios that are not good at playing music but they are good at mixing the sounds...

... the magic recipes on sound mixing that work for every piece of music is like the detailed analysis on how the great composers have written their music...

Mixing is not just a good skill... it is an ART!  The goal is the "play" (compliment) between instruments and balancing the sound of all instruments so we can hear every instrument clearly.

Joe H

[markstyles]

I have almost always left Tyros and now Genos settings where they are..  I record individual tracks into Logic from Genos (every track, every drum has it's own track)..  Once in a while I will put some gentle EQ in addition..  To me, Yamaha has always been experts in their 'mixing of sounds together'.  Individual sounds are great. and while some would argue, the piano  on a Korg, or Roland might sound better..  I find, The Yamaha will be cut thru the mix and be present.  Yamaha products work well, when you sum up several tracks.

My earliest mistakes in being a recording engineer, was EQ'ing everything too much.. Of course in those days, electric instruments, the choice of mics we had to use, the speakers themselves, could be an issue.  Today a lot of that has been eliminated..

Mixing is indeed an art.. Like with music, there is always something new to learn.. A good mix is also dependent on a great arrangement.  If you have several instruments all playing in the same two octaves, it's gonna get muddy.. Sometimes, thinning parts out, or lower/raising volume as sections go by, that can help. Other times you must mix the music as it is..  In your DAW,  I would look at each track individually with the eq analyzer section, to see where the majority of it's sound is.. At this point, you must decide. which instrument is the most important, and for how long.  some volume changes, panning some instruments off to side, hi/lo pass filtering.. 

Usual convention is to record things flat, and then adjust eq later..  It is often more effective to notch EQ in some instruments.  If a lot of instruments are  busy in the 1 K range,  notch one or two of the 'not the most important instrument in the song'.. Notch, and perhaps move another band up, (make it fairly tight) and boost it gently..  You want to think of instruments in a song as colors,  if you've got a painting with 7 different 'reds' it most likely won't be as effective (or look good) without other colors..

You do not have to hear every instrument clearly all the time.  In some songs, yes you do.. but other times, Some instruments do not have to shine all the time..  I think of a song as a stage with a lot of items on it.. The spotlight, moves around, gets stronger on some item.. In a good mix,  if the arrangement is perfect you can let everything shine, providing they are playing in proper registers, and leaving space (silence is an instrument too)..
With a mix, you want to direct or guide the listener's attention.. 

If you have two guitars, fulfilling the same function, you might want to pan them wide, or let one be more in the spotlight and the other a bit in the back ground..  My observation has been, depending on the type of music. the brain can follow 4 - 6 different 'threads' of musical data..  more is an instrument is really supporting another instrument.  Once you get too many different things happening, it turns into a mess, and the brain, dismisses it, or loses interest in trying to make it cohesive.

Obviously get to know your room, speakers etc.  Although it's great to have expensive 'flat' monitors (and sometimes they are not flat). If you know they are bass heavy, don't put as much bass as you would like.. You have to listen on headphones, play on other systems, to get a grasp of this..

Also plug in a favorite CD of music you like/ or is similar in make-up to your current project..  You know the CD is going to sound good on a lot of systems, so notice what it is doing.. 

Sometimes, just leaving recording and playing tracks flat, and then putting a final mastering EQ is the easiest, and clearest thing to do.

I on occasion use Steven Slates FX-G Mastering module or Ozone 8.. Other times, after trying them I decide. the piece sounds better with no final EQ mastering on it.. 

You might even try different mixes, number them, and write notes or save the song project.. Then you can A/B the mixes, on different speakers, headphones, etc.  and get a sense of what works. None of this is written in stone, because every song is different..  Even the key of song, can greatly effect piece, causing some instruments to play up or down an octave to fit the arrangement.   

If you haven't already, look on you-tube for instructional videos.  There are a lot of great videos there, some of them are crap too..

Good luck.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Mark
That explanation sounds great to me and Colours ,I like that.
I get the Idea that some Instruments work on the same frequency causing mud.
I did the Bermuda Triangle as It was a happy expressive tacet song and was quite hard getting expression in there.
I am still an amateur at the mixing stage and might get lucky sometimes
A lot of people hear things differently and It is nice to get all sorts of opinions good or bad about what you do as you would never learn otherwise.
To me the song I did had to be bold with lead and backing to get that happy expression.
The big mistake I made was playing the song In one go and correcting minor mistakes.
I realise that when making a song seriously you have to do It on separate tracks like you say.
What I did was split track one up and pulled the different parts Into separate midi channels and got in a pickle. Then I had to sort this Msb/Lsb thing out.
What I find disorientating is playing the lead with one hand listening to the backing when you are used to both hands down on the keyboard. It is funny that.
Practice again!!
I must admit the Genos is harder  to get around than the Tyros , but It is worth It by a mile.


all the Best
John

[panos]

My favourite equalizer in fl is Parametric equalizer 2.
It helps a lot to "see" the sound as colours as Mark said.
I like to think of the sound frequences as a rainbow.
Light and sound are both waves after all and just happens our body to use two different organs for each.

I read people's posts (like Eileen) saying that the same syles have more clarity on their Genos than they were on their Tyros 5 and I believe they have layered the sounds in more frequences so they no more be "compact", one organ's frequency on another's in the part of the style.

Excellent post Mark and yes I believe too that mixing is an art Joe. 
I just wanted to emphasize that if you don't have the basic skill (good ear) is not something that can be just tought in theory.




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[pjd]

Thanks for your suggestions, Mark.

Reading Sound On Sound got me thinking. The studio guys use some pretty long chains of boutique effects (hardware or plug-in) to get "their sound." Same's true for mastering. Lots of emulations of Neve-this and Pultec-that. 

Three areas where Yamaha could improve: 1. Better support DSP effect chaining, 2. Add more boutique effects, 3. Support side-chaining. Maybe a graphical signal routing screen could cover areas 1 and 3?

Genos is still Montage-lite with respect to a few effects. Montage has the VCM Compressor 376, a true multi-band compressor, VCM EQ 501 and a bunch of tricky studio effects. Even Montage is behind the number of boutique (VCM) offerings from Steinberg.

So, it might be necessary to add outboard gear to Genos to obtain true pro-quality mix and mastering effects. Raises the question of how to use outboard gear via the AUX outputs and bringing the signal back into the Genos mix...

I don't mean this as a slam -- just an area where Yamaha could extend the Genos feature set.

-- pj