Genos Test Number Three

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hello Kaarlo.


About the speakers, I use two JBL EON 1500 as my main speakers, and a
Behringer B1500HP Subwoofer for my gigs.

The JBLs weigh 17 Kilos each, and the subwoofer weighs 42 Kilos.

The JBL speakers are passive, so I also use a 1000 watt Yamaha EMX5000
powered mixer.

The Behringer subwoofer has 2200 watts, and adds great depth to the
overall sound during gigs.

A good and powerful subwoofer is an absolute must, to avoid having the
arranger sound like a cheap 100$ Casio.

This was my first reaction to the T3 when I first played it live on my JBLs.
It sounded cheap and terrible.

It sounded absolutely great on the Tyros speakers that came with it,
or on headphones, but not on my JBLs.

I had never had this problem when I was using a Roland G 800.

It took weeks of tweaking before I dared to play it in front of an audience again.
And I'm still constantly tweaking it as I play, depending on the room, or when
playing outdoor gigs.

I have sent you an E-mail in case you still want to send me the songs. Yes I do and will.

Best Regards.
Abby.

This is the kind of information I highly appreciate.   Posts like these is what separates the men from the boys even if the boys are 83 like myself.  And then one realizes that there is no way to work with speakers one is able to carry oneself.
Thanks once again Abby.

Cheers
Kaarlo

[Grayfox]

These are exactly my settings as well and my Genos sounds absolutely great!

I like to hear the sound Yamaha had in mind. Their mixing engineers are top notch, IMHO. So I have monitor speakers with a flat frequency response (HS7) in my living room and EQ to flat and compressor off. Turning the compressor off gives the sound more "bite".

I notice that the sound of the Genos is well balanced and has more bass than the Tyros 5.

The only EQ needed is to fix problems with the room or speakers, not with the sound of the Genos itself.

So what settings do you recommend for earphones?
Graham


Maarten

[Toril S]

I have rhe Bose L1 compact. It is awsome!

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hello Kaarlo.


About the speakers, I use two JBL EON 1500 as my main speakers, and a
Behringer B1500HP Subwoofer for my gigs.

The JBLs weigh 17 Kilos each, and the subwoofer weighs 42 Kilos.

The JBL speakers are passive, so I also use a 1000 watt Yamaha EMX5000
powered mixer.

The Behringer subwoofer has 2200 watts, and adds great depth to the
overall sound during gigs.

A good and powerful subwoofer is an absolute must, to avoid having the
arranger sound like a cheap 100$ Casio.

This was my first reaction to the T3 when I first played it live on my JBLs.
It sounded cheap and terrible.

It sounded absolutely great on the Tyros speakers that came with it,
or on headphones, but not on my JBLs.

I had never had this problem when I was using a Roland G 800.

It took weeks of tweaking before I dared to play it in front of an audience again.
And I'm still constantly tweaking it as I play, depending on the room, or when
playing outdoor gigs.

I have sent you an E-mail in case you still want to send me the songs.

Best Regards.
Abby.

Here is the same song, I chose piano because that is where I can hear differences best, played on Tyros and Genos.
Do you think a person in the audience can hear the difference ?

Cheers
Kaarlo

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Pino]

Kaarlo, I agree with you 100%, most listeners wouldn't know or wouldn't care,
As long as they get good music

Good music probably means a good player,

[tyrosman]

the system I use is Qsc k 10 and an Allen and Heath Z6FX  here is the qsc k10 link   https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/loudspeakers/stage-monitors/k10/ and here is the Allen and Heath link. http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/zed-6fx/

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Kaarlo, I agree with you 100%, most listeners wouldn't know or wouldn't care,
As long as they get good music

Good music probably means a good player,

Thanks Pino,
I see the comparison has been downloaded by quite a few, but so far you are the only one to comment.  These things are difficult and emotionally loaded.  Who wants to admit he  spent a lot of money that strictly speaking  does not have a "business=gig"  reason. We tend to be happier buying a new car we want  explaining "now is the right moment to trade  in"  which is pure b..it for a private person who can use a taxi when the old car is being repaired (a taxi driver losing his income due to the car being in a workshop is another story)  I  have a 27 year old Mercedes and an 18 year old Range Rover.  Just the depreciation of a new Range Rover in the first year is  10 x more than I spend on repairing these old cars every year.  In order to justify our extravagant choices we see, sorry hear things, that are barely discernible  just as a new girlfriend always looks better than she really does. That is why I am not so happy when people  write, "My Genos finally arrived this afternoon, I love it. " when I am looking for information.  Fortunately I happen to have a wife who says,  "My dear, if you want to buy that new Genos even though you are not 100 % convinced it is way better than your old one,  please buy it even if nobody can hear any difference."  So that is why I have one and all the problems that new keyboards always have. Let us not forget Tyros was perfect only after 5 updates and my friendly dealer having exchanged all its innards.

Cheers

Kaarlo             

[soryt]

Here is the same song, I chose piano because that is where I can hear differences best, played on Tyros and Genos.
Do you think a person in the audience can hear the difference ?

Cheers
Kaarlo

Is this recorded with the CFX Piano ?? on the Genos  ?

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Is this recorded with the CFX Piano ?? on the Genos  ?

Glad you ask soryt,

There is one quote from Mark Twain I love: "I was gratified to be able to give and immediate and correct answer ". which in his case was "I do not know "       
In this case:  YES it was done with the CFX Piano directly from Genos out  (not digital, normal analogue as we use on gigs) to a TASCAM  recorder recording to a card which then was transferred to my PC.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[jwyvern]

Kaarlo,
When I listened, diverting the mp3's output through my keyboard's speakers (as opposed to listening on inferior PC or tablet speakers!) I could hear a difference. The Genos piano had slightly more depth than the Tyros one and the clarity was better. Your audiences may very well not notice a difference. It's usually the player (especially home players who have more time ) IMO who pay more attention to voice quality and comparisons, rather than audiences.

How differently the pianos are judged will depend to a large extent on the type of music played. Testing a slower piece, with rich chording, extensive use of sustain, and plenty of expression will probably show up larger differences between them - especially for the player.

John

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Kaarlo,
When I listened, diverting the mp3's output through my keyboard's speakers (as opposed to listening on inferior PC or tablet speakers!) I could hear a difference. The Genos piano had slightly more depth than the Tyros one and the clarity was better. Your audiences may very well not notice a difference. It's usually the player (especially home players who have more time ) IMO who pay more attention to voice quality and comparisons, rather than audiences.

How differently the pianos are judged will depend to a large extent on the type of music played. Testing a slower piece, with rich chording, extensive use of sustain, and plenty of expression will probably show up larger differences between them - especially for the player.

John

John I very much agree with what you say. I wrote you a long long answer with WAVE samples to prove your point, but it bounced. What I hate about  this wonderful technology is in case the attachment bounces you lose whatever you wrote.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[travlin-easy]

Kaarlo, the simple solution to losing your text is to highlight and copy it before pressing that submit button. That way, if you loose it, it's just a matter of clicking Paste into the next submission.

Good luck,

Gary 

[Pino]

Kaarlo, maybe you can write the original in MS Word or IOS Pages and copy and paste Your replies,

[Fred Smith]

What I hate about  this wonderful technology is in case the attachment bounces you lose whatever you wrote.

Just hit the back button, and your post will be there.

Hope this helps.
Fref

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Just hit the back button, and your post will be there.

Hope this helps.
Fref

Thanks Gary and Fred for trying to help. The problem at 83  is you do not do what you know you should do.  How many times have I not been writing a long document on my PC, for instance a drone manual WITHOUT saving it along the way, which I KNOW I should.  You are  100 % right it is best to write anything in Word and then copy it into any  "writing window ".  Having for so long worked with a  10 x 4 foot table, all documents neatly laid out in whatever pattern was appropriate for the job, working with the PC where the next to last document is always hidden by the present is harder for me than it should be due to the dismal short time memory.  Will now try to send just one  WAV attachment, first Tyros and then in the next post the Genos in WAV .  The difference in WAV is easier to hear then in MP3.

There is one thing we, myself included,  easily forget when discussing these things: YAMAHA is not selling keyboards to the audience but to the players, so even if the audience in a noisy environment cannot neither  hear nor actually appreciate  an improvement in sound, that is only an issue in case the prospective buyer bases his decision purely on "audience reaction value", which a large part of the buyers will not do as they are often playing at home when preparing for their gigs.

Cheers

Kaarlo



It happened again, and here I am back with the help of the back button.  It was not right there,  I landed somewhere else, but it could be found. I will now shorten the WAW files and try again

[attachment deleted by admin]

[MarcusAhlback]

Hi Kaarlo,
I listened to your comparison and I believe  there is mainly the player him-/herself that can notice the difference.
(Or if there should be a pianist in the audience that pays attention).
My compliments on your playing as well. It is balanced and got that swing.

Kind regards Marcus

[soryt]

In my ears the tyros sounds better ? , Strange :-)
If you play the CFX sample besides the "old" Tyros Piano there is a big difference , isnt it strange that in this recordings there is almost no difference ?

Soryt   

[jwyvern]

I agree with soryt. The Genos piano seemed to be more lost within the accompaniment which would be enough to downrate it. (Maybe the balance was not set loud enough). When played live on Genos the CFX piano sounds streets ahead of the Tyros flagship ConcertGrand. The latter does not sound any better to me even when played on Genos (it is available in Legacy voices). Formerly the LiveGrand was a more satisfying voice for piano players - now available as GrandPiano in Genos legacy, and still sounding good! Which Tyros voice did you select?

As implied before, although a good stirring number, certainly well played and appreciated by audiences, it is not the best test IMO for overall comparisons. On the other hand it probably helps to demonstrate that at the current levels of technology too much emphasis on detailed debates about which is best are not so relevant for the gigging circuit. 
John

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

In my ears the tyros sounds better ? , Strange :-)
If you play the CFX sample besides the "old" Tyros Piano there is a big difference , isnt it strange that in this recordings there is almost no difference ?

Soryt   

Well. I can only say the only difference when recording the samples was that I set all piano parts in Tyros 5/6 to grand piano and to CFX on Genos.
What all this seems to indicate to me is YAMAHA' s keyboard voices have reached an unprecedented  level of authenticity and  we are basically dealing with personal  preferences,   de gustibus non est disputandum   is what already the Romans said, matters of taste cannot be disputed, to which some -  me included say:     on the contrary, only matters of taste can be the subject of a dispute.  Facts are facts so they are indisputable.  Nobody can claim TYROS 5/6  is not heavier than Genos. Nobody can deny the sliders on Genos are nice to have in a live situation.  I would be very happy with my Genos were it not for the  (disputable  fact ? ) that  the  registry bank memory on the two specimens I have here  is not reliable and so far nobody has been able to help me with a fix.

Cheers

Kaarlo


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Lee Batchelor]

Kaarlo, I think we can help you with your registration issues. All we need are two things:

• Copies of the faulty registrations - which you have already posted
• What you wish to accomplish - which seems to be unknown at the moment, or am I in error?

And while I'm thinking of it - the bulleted list function on this forum doesn't work using conventional methods! Normally, you select both lines, and then click the bullet icon, but the resulting code is incorrect. I have to use my knowledge of HTML to manually modify the code because this forum software does not apply the bullets according to how the vast majority of software does! Can someone please tell me how to make several individual lines, bullets?

[EileenL]

Yes Lee,
  I already requested this information from Kaarlo. The registrations are loading in fine and staying as set but they are not what Kaarlo wants. Once a registration bank is set up as it should be it will not alter when used again.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Yes Lee,
  I already requested this information from Kaarlo. The registrations are loading in fine and staying as set but they are not what Kaarlo wants. Once a registration bank is set up as it should be it will not alter when used again.

Thanks Eileen, that is exactly what one would expect and what is necessary if you are to use a keyboard at a gig.  My problem is it does not on both  Genos specimens I have.  That the registrations I sent you are corrupt is evident. No-one would make that stupid banks. They are not what was input and memorized and controlled to have been memorized correctly by calling up the bank  a little later, looking at the info and playing the whole bank as there are things like volume balance of style and right hand  that is not listed in the info. Out of shear desperation  I  yesterday spent an hour making a new bank progressively (one up)  changing EVERY thing under each button:  new style, new tempo, new key, new voice, new harmony, new volume balance under each button.  It did work as memorized when I after a while called up the bank and played through all 10 banks.  I am afraid within a few days without ever having been opened the bank will be corrupt just as the ones I sent to Eileen. Will be back.

Thanks for your patience

Cheers

Kaarlo 

[soryt]

I recognize Kaarlo his problem with registration banks , after the 1.20 update a lot of registrations made in Ver 1.10 dont work anymore ?
Al the selected file's used in that registrations ( Sty, sound, song , text , etc.) are saved in the user memory , it isnt a isue with the Usb ports.
but the strange thing is that sometimes the "corrupt" registration suddenly works , and some times it doesnt , switching power of/on will sometimes help.
I send a mail to Yamaha , and the respond was :it is sometimes possible that a "bug" occures  because the complexity of the machine , they will have a look at the problem .

Soryt 

[EileenL]

Hi Kaarlo,
When you have completed the bank are you then pressing the file button and selecting save Save then choosing where you want it and pressing Save Here and then naming it. Are you using the parameter lock. If so take it off whilst saving your bank. Then when you have completed a bank try it and if it is OK put the parameter lock back on. I have posted an example on your other thread.

[travlin-easy]

To my knowledge, there has never been a corrupt registration. That said, it is possible to have a registration link to a corrupt style or midi file, but the registration itself will only do exactly what you tell it to do. This is NOT a bug!

Gary

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Gary. A registration is nothing more than a series of very good pointers. If it points to a bad style, there's your problem.

[DerekA]

Does the registration bank always sort itself out if you power off, wait for a while, then power on again? There could be an issue with an overheating component.

Back about 35 years ago, a friend of mine had a ZX81 (a very early and simple home computer). When you had some text on the screen then very slowly, over the course of about 10 minutes, all the letter "L"s on the screen morphed into "K"s as the machine heated up. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself.

[Fred Smith]

I recognize Kaarlo his problem with registration banks , after the 1.20 update a lot of registrations made in Ver 1.10 dont work anymore ?

I haven't had any trouble with my registrations, and I have over 400 of them. They all worked when ported from the T4, and all remained working when going through 1.10 to 1.20.

Fred

[soryt]

I haven't had any trouble with my registrations, and I have over 400 of them. They all worked when ported from the T4, and all remained working when going through 1.10 to 1.20.

Fred

Lucky you , 

I have made about 550 registrations , and there are a few that doesnt work all the time .
For example one registration contents : style ,voice, effect , song 1&2 (midi & Mp3/wave),Text .when i recal the registration, i see in screen al the info of the registration and the desired style , but it doesnt play that selected style ? , After switching the Genos Of and restart sometimes the registration works . ( not always)
After 15 years of use of the whole Tyros range i am familiar with all the Yamaha software  structure , so i dont think it is a user's error . ( spend ±3 hours a day with the instruments) average .
And not to forget , with the internal styles is there no problem with registrations.

Soryt 

[Gunnar Jonny]

If the goal is to load all old stuff as it was at discontinued models, why on earth do you change keyboards at all?   
To me the goal is to get the best possible out of G, not to make it sound and act like T4 or other T or PSR's.