Is there a good alternative for the C7b9 chord?

[XeeniX]

Hi,

Not sure where to post this question and since this part of the forum is usually populated by much more advanced players than myself here goes nothing

I'm trying to play the song "Cry me a river" and in it there's the C7b9 chord among others. Normally I think played with two hands on a piano (C,E,G,Bb, Dd) but how do you do that when your right hand is needed somewhere else on the keyboard?

I find it very hard to play that one with one hand no matter what type of chord fingering I use but replacing the chord by a simple C7 doesn't do the song any good. These "train-wreck" sounding chords are a real extra for some jazzy songs. How do you (keyboard) players solve this? Do you use an alternative chord and if so would you consider a Gdim or Gdim7 as a good replacement?

kind regards,
Peter

[jwyvern]

Hi Peter,
If you are not playing with a left hand voice (so you don't have to worry about avoiding it sounding discordant)  you can play the chord you mentioned in a more manageable closed position, eg  G/Bb/C/Db/E is still interpreted as C7b9. And to make it easier still you can omit the G and it still works (in the open or closed positions).

John

[XeeniX]

Thank you John,

Much appreciated, you just saved me from overstretched fingers and a few broken keys

kind regards,
Peter

[Jørgen]

...
and a few broken keys

... and a few broken fingers

Have a nice weekend
Jørgen

[mikf]

When using full keyboard its easy to play these chords over two hands, but not so easy on LH alone when using a split keyboard, although theoretically possible, per the previous post. But overall, I find it works better to include the extended notes in the RH as a passing note along with the melody, even when using a split keyboard. So play C7 but make sure you hit the Db with your RH.You will get the effect you want.
Mike.

[DerekA]

The reference manuals show which notes trigger the various chords - and which notes are optional. This is really just visual confirmation of what John said, but it's a useful ref for the more unusual chords.



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[Roger Brenizer]

Because the topics in the Songs Played by Forum Members board are removed after a few months, which is where it was originally posted, I'll move this topic to keep it on the forum, so that it may help others having this same question. 

[panos]

You can find the fingering of every chord for each key on your keyboard with this function:
FUNCTION
STYLE SETTING/SPLIT POINT/CHORD FINGERING 
CHORD FINGERING

Chord Tutor Function
With this function shown in the right half of this display, you can see which notes to press for specifying the chord. If you know a chord name but don't know how to play it, use this function. Although this function shows how to play a chord only in case of "Fingered," the indication is useful also when a type other than "Single Finger" is selected.

Also useful the possible inversions of the chords:
https://www.8notes.com/piano_chord_chart/c.asp

Inversions on a keyboard help your left hand to play the great majority of the chords in just 12 keyboard keys so sometimes it is easier for people not to move around the left hand too much and hitting the wrong keys or losing time if they don't have a "fast" left hand.
Useful when you are playing a style.

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[XeeniX]

Panos,

I know how the chords are built. As a youngster I learned almost every possible combination of the C chord. After that it becomes simple math to find out how that works in all other key chords. Since the distance between the notes is the same for each key chord. I do not know much about quints and the likes I usually count the half notes of the chord in C (I know those) and do the same for example if I need to play the D, E, F# etc. equivalent.

I asked since my fingers nowadays have a little less souplesse 4-fingered chords are doable usually whith practise but the 5-fingered ones became almost impossible. I use the inversions and that already helps but with 5-fingered chords they are still pretty damn hard to play:) I was just wondering how others deal with these less easy chords. I wondered if there was a way to play it for example in the multi fingered chord setting with a combination of 2 or 3 keys or if they would use an alternative chord that would still do justice to the song but a little less difficult to grab like the Gdim or Gdim7 when playing keyboard style. I have less problems when playing piano style grabbing that chord since it is usually a broken chord not having to use all keys the same time. But with a lead sheet it is more difficult strangely enough since you need to play all keys at once to let the keyboard recognize the chord. You use split points on top of that and the right hand is often on the other end of the keyboard making it even harder to assist the left hand since that would leave you with a unwanted short break/silence in the melody unlike with piano where the sheet music is usually written to make room for the right hand to help out the left (uh I realize this is not the correct way to say it but I think you know what I mean)

Thanks nonetheless for you reply and advice. The same thanks btw for all others that helped I tried Mik's suggestion but John's suggestion leaving the G note out was the best solution for me. It still sounds (and shows on the display) as a C7b9 

*Edit* I just re-read Derek's reply. Didn't read it correctly the first time and didn't notice the "optional" _ sign. That is also a big help for future "5-fingered" problems. Seeing them is hard for me but now that I know they are there finding them becomes easier so much appreciated Derek

regards,
Peter

[panos]

Hi my friend Peter,
My post was not for helping you.I am sure you know all those things and I don't know music theory in any way as good as you are.

I thought that it may help other home players like me that learn music by themselves or starting to learn how to play a keyboard just for fun or the Function button is a "scary" button.
I saw that Roger moved the subject to the "Psr/Tyros features".
I use the searching engine of the forum a lot to find old posts about something I want to know or learn.
I am really sorry!!
I should have make it clear on my first post and it is my mistake.

I am having trouble with the difficult fingering chords also and sometimes I replace them with a chord that sounds alike but not bad at all.
I prefer to play a chord that is just ok and only few will notice the difference,
instead of making a mistake and play a totally wrong chord that everybody will notice.
Those "optional" notes for difficult chords are also indicated with a parenthesis(bracket) by Yamaha in the chord fingering menu.   
 

[rdiazhin]

This is the easiest position for C79b

(G) Bb C Db E

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[mikf]

Doesn't matter how you slice it, these five finger chords don't lend themselves to slick chord changes! Best way I can put it is that these fingerings are possible rather than practical. 
I must admit that I am mainly use my keyboards set to full keyboard fingerings so I don't have too much trouble with these  chords, because I use both hands.
Mike

[jwyvern]

Doesn't matter how you slice it, these five finger chords don't lend themselves to slick chord changes! Best way I can put it is that these fingerings are possible rather than practical.
Mike

Yes Mike, I'm yet to be convinced that it is necessary or even desirable to go to the trouble of getting the keyboard to interpret such chords fully under typical style conditions rather than for example 7ths. Unless you are say using a free play style where the full depth of chording can be enjoyed at length, what can happen with normal styles at default settings is that the colouring notes are  drowned out in the general rhythm of drums, bass etc. and melody before quickly moving on to the next chord. If the special notes are needed to add colour to a song (as they often are) they arguably have more impact when added as part of the melody, or left voice, rather than simply leaving it all to the style.


John

[XeeniX]

@ Panos
You have said or posted absolutely nothing to say sorry for my friend. I think we both misunderstood and for  the difference in play level: My level is about zero at the moment. Have to learn how to play again now that my eyes are as good as gone and even when I could still make use of them my level would be best described as "wannabe" So thank you nonetheless for your information

@ Mike and John
You are correct, when I use the full keyboard and play from a piano sheet the problem is non-existent with both hands. I like the styles sometimes however and piano sheets are very difficult to read even blown up to mega enhancement. My eyes skip parts of the measure and my brain is trying to cope by melting the remaining notes/measures together which is pretty creative at times :p but mostly unwanted. I therefore need to learn a song by heart  but before I do that I usually will first try it with a lead sheet that is easier to read The AI Full keyboard fingering on the T5 has quite a few problems with some music pieces when playing piano style. In those case I try to split and play in fingered mode to get the acmp right. I think the C7b9 in "cry me a river" adds quite a nice extra which is why i wanted to play it in the first place. In most of the pieces I play these 5-fingered chords are not even there or are less important but with a jazzy song these chords can really enrich a song imo.

Thanks both for your insights because I really appreciate them,

Peter

[mikf]

You are correct that simply following a piano sheet will often have issues with chord interpretation. If you develop a very harmony based playing style then it will work well. The technique is to use the lead sheet as a very basic framework and fill the arrangement by ear over both hands.
Mike