Tyros 5 Line Out distortion - 9,5KHz frequency tone

[RF]

There was another report of this on the German Yamaha forum, see the link below:

http://forum.yamaha-europe.com/showthread.php?40237-Hochfrequenzton-beim-Tyros-5-!

The following was stated there:
"Mein Händler rief schon bei Yamaha an, man kannte wohl diesen "Fehler" er trat laut Aussage Yamaha schon mehrfach auf, anscheinend weiß man sich aber seitens Yamaha bei den T5 Modellen noch nicht zu helfen"

Translation: "My store called Yamaha, they know this "error" yet and said, it happened sometimes, they have no idea how to fix it in T5"

[Elainehf]

robbiedoes

Okay - I need to improve my reading skills.   

The last item that comes to mind is that your "mains" may be full of noise or not even properly installed in your home.

Have you tried your keyboard at another location other than your home studio to see if the noise persists? 

For safety reasons, it is not a good idea to eliminate that "third" rail - you might want to consider a line isolator or
even a battery backup, same as for computers to filter the power.

You probably have tried all of these things already and are just things that I have run into over the years that have worked.

Since you are not the only person reporting this trouble, Yamaha needs to get more than just a little interested in this quickly.

Bill G

I had a similar buzz with the T4 when I connected my Bose L1C, and someone on the forum mentioned to be sure both the keyboard and Bose were plugged into the same power strip/surge protector.  That was a quick cure all.  Now T5 and Bose are both on a monster surge protecter FOR AUDIO. Had never realized there was a difference between video and audio. 

Hope you can resolve soon.

Elaine

[Beemer]

Hello Robbie,

I apologise for not contributing a reply before now.   I have listened to your mp3 file, and as an ex electronics technician and later a switched-mode power supply sales engineer, can say with some authority that the noise that you are experiencing is not a ground loop problem.  Ground loops produce a hum at the frequency of the supply voltage or at a close multiple of that frequency.

The 9.5kHz (I think you said) frequency that you hear is a frequency at the very lowest end that is used by manufacturers of switched mode power supplies.   These frequencies can in more smaller and efficient types go way above 1 Mhz which are then inaudable.

Could you post the actual file somewhere so that I could download and examine it?

Ian  

[robbiedoes]

@Bill: In the case you haven't read all the details...I have fixed the noise by disabling the ground in the 220V cable of the Tyros only. But I cannot accept this from a professional instrument of €4000,-. That's the state of this issue at this moment.

@Kari: Thank you for your input and carification. And this moment we can only wait for the answer of Yamaha. I hope they realize that there are a lot of complaints at this moment. That can't be ignored. Though?

@Ian: Please send me a private message with your e-mailaddress and I will send you the original .wav file to analyze.

[Kari V]

Hello Robbie,

I apologise for not contributing a reply before now.   I have listened to your mp3 file, and as an ex electronics technician and later a switched-mode power supply sales engineer, can say with some authority that the noise that you are experiencing is not a ground loop problem.  Ground loops produce a hum at the frequency of the supply voltage or at a close multiple of that frequency.

The 9.5kHz (I think you said) frequency that you hear is a frequency at the very lowest end that is used by manufacturers of switched mode power supplies.   These frequencies can in more smaller and efficient types go way above 1 Mhz which are then inaudable.

Could you post the actual file somewhere so that I could download and examine it?

Ian  

The noise was eliminated by breaking the ground loop. It is pretty hard to imagine a better clue for the nature of the problem.

Here's what  Bill Whitlock says about this:

IT'S NOT JUST 50/60 HZ

Power-line voltage normally consists of a broad spectrum of harmonics and noise in addition to the pure 50/60 Hz sine wave.
The noise is created by power supplies in electronic equipment, fluorescent lights, light dimmers, etc.

Sadly, most audiophile and virtually all consumer audio devices still use unbalanced interfaces that are inherently extremely susceptible to power-line noise.
(Well I already wrote this earlier, so this is just a repetition)

Regards
Kari

[Beemer]

Hello again Robbie,

A couple of questions:

Are you connecting your Tyros 5 output to the 1/4" unbalanced line inputs as you should and not into your AW2400 XLR balanced inputs?

You wouldn't happen to have activated your AW2400  10kHZ sine wave test tone?

Ian

[robbiedoes]

@Ian: I use two mono jack<=>mono jack cables to connect the Tyros 5 to the AW2400 (cables & connectors are from Neutrik). Length: 1-1,5 meter. So it is an unbalanced connection. Balanced XLR inputs of the AW2400 are not used. I can confirm that the 10KHz sine wave test is not activated .

[amazemusic@hotmail.com]

I have a very innoiying frequency on my tyros5, in the high... i cant describe, but something is it...not a tone but a diskantsound i mean a trble, very bad

[Beemer]

(updated reply)

Robbie,

The bottom image is the frequency analysis of your full waveform.   The top waveform was only a selection so ignore it.   

Note that you also have 20kHz noise.

If you send me another waveform this time of just the output of your digital recorder without the Tyros connected I'll make another frequency analysis.

Ian





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[robbiedoes]

I just want to update this topic with the final solution.

It took a long breath, but exactly one year later Yamaha decided to replace the mainboard of the Tyros 5. Yesterday I've visited the Yamaha Authorised Service Centre for the replacement. Back home I've tested the Tyros 5 by connecting everything back again to a grounded outlet. I was surprised to hear that it really did solve the 9,5KHz frequency tone and happy that finally a solution has been provided. Never expected that it could be caused by the mainboard.

I have always seen the solution using non-grounded outlets for all connected equimpent as a workaround. Now I can finally close this issue.


Greetings,

Robert

[Marcus]

Thanks for the update, Robert. You went through epic troubleshooting to resolve this issue. I hope Yamaha covered this under your Tyros warrantee.

These minor annoyances occur from time to time, but Yamaha still has a very good track record for quality and support. All my Tyros (PSR) models I owned over the years have been totally trouble free. I still have confidence and trust in the Yamaha brand, but to be prudent I still use the philosophy of keeping a backup keyboard ready and lots of spare cables and stuff.

Take care. I too enjoyed your videos and tutorials.

Marcus

[micdonk]

Hi Robert,

congratulations with your repaired  Tyros 5.
I took some time but at the end the problem is gone and Yamaha knows what went wrong.
Now its time for having fun with your Tyros 5

Michel

[selbalicious]

Very interesting.
I JUST stumbled upon this particular post.

[selbalicious]

...so I'll reply in little short messages...

My Tyros 5 76 is right at the 3 month mark of my ownership.
I noticed early on some noise when I had ALL outputs connected to a simple Behringer UFX1204 mixer and then the mixer connected to HS80s in my home studio.
The noise reminded me SLIGHTLY of the whole "laptop sound card and USB noise" whine kind of thing.
Except in this case, I have nothing connected via USB anywhere (neither on the Tyros, nor on the Behringer mixer).

[selbalicious]

I think I pulled out my HumX (Ebtech) hum thingey but either didn't try enough combinations or whatever, but I know I didn't eliminate the noise.

I just decided to live with it (while wryly noting that a freaking $5000 keyboard should NOT have noise problems, NOR should it have unbalanced outputs....sheesh!).

But now I think I'll experiment more with ground loop isolators (including the cheap kind from the hardware store that simply lift the ground entirely...I know...not good...but I'm curious).

[selbalicious]

And if I can't eliminate it, then perhaps my main board needs to be replaced too.

Again, as I said above, I WAS just going to live with it. The noise floor in my particular case is indeed low, but dammit, why is it there AT ALL.

So now I'm getting slightly annoyed...hmmmmmm.....

[robbiedoes]

Kevin,

Did you listen to my posted sample (recorded from silence to turning on the Tyros 5 and waiting for the main screen)? You can listen to it here, but please listen to it using a headphone to hear all the details: http://www.robbiedoes.nl/diversen/TyrosForum/LineOutT5.mp3

Do you recognize the sound of the noise? If yes, at what particular part of my sample?

The mainboard replacement was mend for solving the high frequency flute tone. As I read your story it seems you have another type of noise. I miss your attempt to eliminate everything. So start with connecting your Tyros 5 directly to the HS-80 without the Behringer mixer. Disconnect everything else (signal cables & power cables!!). This should give a clean result. If not, the only thing you can try is to connect the Tyros 5 and HS-80's into an ungrounded power outlet.

Robert

[selbalicious]

this board is pissing me off.
Gee...will it let me post TWO FREAKING SENTENCES???

[selbalicious]

egads.

Anyway...your .mp3 is exactly the same noise as mine.
I will record it (on my system) in the next few days.
I will then try to eliminate the noise via various cabling scenarios.

[selbalicious]

Finally...if I can prove that ungrounded does the trick, then it sounds like my main board should be replaced.
And believe me, for ~$5K I should have a noise-free keyboard (now I'm starting to get righteously angry...HAH!).

[Beemer]

You must have set your calender reminder to come back after a year 😁  It's good that you finally got it fixed but I assume that Yamana never provided a report on what was wrong with your original board?

Ian

[selbalicious]

So...to further increase the intrigue around this:
I was at a gig Saturday night (this last weekend) and I had TRS cables coming out of all 6 outputs (Main and Aux 1-4) of the back of my Tyros 5 (76) and into the main mixing board (QSC Touchmix 16).
The noise was so bad that it would have been nearly unusable. I swapped cables out (including trying TS rather than TRS) and tried all kinds of other things to no avail. Same noise.
I thought I would have to go to the local hardware store down the road and get one of those ground lifter adapters UNTIL I remembered that I had my EBTech HumX adapter in my gig bag.
Now remember: I had tried this silly thing at home and didn't find that it did ANYTHING.
I plugged the Tyros into the HumX and then plugged the HumX into my rack's power supply.
Boom. Noise COMPLETELY GONE!

[selbalicious]

Guitar player steps on stage, plugs his Gibson into his Zoom G5 pedal board and then from there into his Traynor amp.
CRAZY noise. HIDEOUS noise. Again, almost unusable.
Based on my fresh experience with the HumX, I looked on the back of his G5 and pushed in the Ground Lift button.
BOOM. Noise completely gone.

[selbalicious]

Soooo, I'm not really gonna blame the Tyros since it also showed up in the guitar chain, but MAN I am glad for these simple fixes (even though I've heard this is dangerous to do these things?).

[selbalicious]

Now the HumX I THINK is still considered grounded (well...at least it has 3 prongs?).
But I don't know what the Zoom G5 is doing when you lift the ground off of it.

Anyway...not gonna send my Tyros in unless you kind folks pipe up and tell me that yes, it IS something that can be fixed on the Tyros.

[selbalicious]

And by the way, I'm still lovin' how I have to post 14 times just to get a few paragraphs.
Sigh.

[angelonyc]

My T5 has a spike at 13k and 15k... I never heard it..Until I posted a song that had a chord ending with reverb. Someone on the site mentioned it.. I record into Logic, I looked with a EQ plug-in.. and there it distinctly is.. It is soft, and 95% of the time masked by music playing.. I haven't gotten around to positively identifing the source, (since I can't hear it).. any my year warrantee is well over.. and I wouldn't want to not have my instrument for a prolonged time..

[rolfeilert]

I got the exact same problem with my Tyros4. I am an electronic engineer so I detected the hum to be somewhat close to a multiple of the switched mode power supply frequency(5-10k). I found a loose capacitor inside the power supply, most probable  due to a violent drop, or a little accident I had with the board(Some soldering inside there looked rather hasty and low quality work. This capacitator was a part of a filter, the high pitched noise was, of course, polluting the rest of the circuits, around 10k beeping tone. A little soldering one of the legs and now it appears dead silent !!!!

Hope this will help somebody out there  ,cheers!!!!!