Possibly another bug for Yamaha to deal with

[keynote]

Hi everyone. I've had my current Genos for almost two weeks now (the other one I returned due to a hardware issue). I transferred files e.g. midi files and style files to the User drive (58 GB) on the Genos. I tried to do a backup today for the first time but the Genos displayed an error stating: "there are too many files in a folder" or something to that effect. It would not allow me to back up the system and it seems to be a bug because I have full access to my files and folders on both the User drive and on the USB 2 thumb drive located underneath the Genos where I store my audio files. I am posting this so if a Yamaha representative happens to read this they can relay the information to the right person. If I am able to access my files within the folder(s) the Genos should be able to back up the files and folders I would assume. Since I have no way to back up my Genos, if something went wrong, I would lose my data most likely and that would be unfortunate.

Mike

[Al Ram]

Mike
do you have the USB with data that you used to transfer your files to the Genos. ? At this point that USB would be your backup so that you do not lose your data.

Hope you resolve your problem soon.

thanks

[zionip]

Hi everyone. I've had my current Genos for almost two weeks now (the other one I returned due to a hardware issue). I transferred files e.g. midi files and style files to the User drive (58 GB) on the Genos. I tried to do a backup today for the first time but the Genos displayed an error stating: "there are too many files in a folder" or something to that effect. It would not allow me to back up the system and it seems to be a bug because I have full access to my files and folders on both the User drive and on the USB 2 thumb drive located underneath the Genos where I store my audio files. I am posting this so if a Yamaha representative happens to read this they can relay the information to the right person. If I am able to access my files within the folder(s) the Genos should be able to back up the files and folders I would assume. Since I have no way to back up my Genos, if something went wrong, I would lose my data most likely and that would be unfortunate.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Genos owner's manual p. 38 specifies that:
The maximum number of files/folders which can be stored in a folder is 2500.

In your case, you probably have more than 2500 files in some of the folders on the "User" storage area.

There are 2 ways of doing backups for Genos:
1.  On Genos:  Menu -> Menu2 -> Utility -> Factory Reset / Backup  2/2  <- this one fails for you due to too many files in a folder.
2.  Genos USB storage mode:  Turn the Genos's power on while holding the [PLAYLIST] button to enter the USB Storage Mode, then you can copy/backup on your PC / Mac.

You can always fix the "too many files in a folder" error by going through each folder to make sure you do not have more than 2500 files per folder.

Thanks,
Paul

[keynote]

Yes Al Ram I do have a back up copy of my files on my computer. But if for some reason I lost my data on the Genos in a situation where I didn't have access to my computer I would be up a creek without a paddle so to speak. For some reason the Genos thinks I have too many files within a folder or folders but if that was the case I would not be able to access those files within the folder(s) but I do have access to all my files on the Genos so therefore the Genos should also be able to back those files up but it doesn't needless to say. Too bad Steve Deming of Yamaha US no longer posts on this or other Yamaha keyboard forums. It would be nice to know if there is a fix or a workaround to the problem. I might have to end up calling Yamaha myself but probably not until after new years day.

Mike

[keynote]

I am aware of the limit Paul. I made sure from the get go that the files did not exceed the limit when transferring them to the Genos. If the limit had actually been exceeded I would not be able to access the files in question. Since I have access to all my files I know I didn't exceed the limit within any of the folders. 

Mike

[StuartR]

I am aware of the limit Paul. I made sure from the get go that the files did not exceed the limit when transferring them to the Genos. If the limit had actually been exceeded I would not be able to access the files in question. Since I have access to all my files I know I didn't exceed the limit within any of the folders. 

Mike

I trust folks like you who find these potential bugs are following up with Yamaha and reporting them. I certainly wouldn't count on them either reading posts here or hearing about these issues third-hand. 

[vlbrgt]

The backup can be made only for at max 1,9 Gb of files.
You can for example not make a compleet backup of the USER that has 58 GB.

So if you have more than 1.9 GB files to backup it won't work (i've read this somewhere but i can not found it back).


In the manual is written :

The [USB TO DEVICE] terminal underneath the instrument cannot be used when backing up or restoring the data.

If you want to include audio files, enter a checkmark to the "Include Audio files" beforehand


Regrads
Etienne

[EileenL]

Back up your internal memory the normal way to your computer. You can then always copy the content to another USB stick that you can keep with you.

[keynote]

Okay, so if the limit is 1.9 GB for a backup then that is the reason I cannot back up to a USB flash drive since I have well over 3 GB of data stored on the User drive currently.

As Eileen suggested I could use the Mass Storage feature on the Genos i.e. "turn power on while holding down Playlist button" to enter Mass storage mode. From there I can make a back up on my computer and then transfer to a USB flash drive to have available when needed. Needless to say it would have been easier and more convenient to make a backup copy on the Genos itself. I wonder why the limit using that method is 1.9 GB? Can that be verified? The error message that came up in my situation stated "there are too many files in a folder" NOT that a limit of 1.9 GB had been exceeded. So it still leaves a few questions unanswered and therefore I probably will call Yamaha in Buena Park, CA. which is not too far from where I live actually. Hopefully they can clear things up. Merry Christmas!

Mike

[jwyvern]

Quoting Etienne,
"So if you have more than 1.9 GB files to backup it won't work (i've read this somewhere but i can not found it back)."
That no. of gigabytes is close to the size of the Expansion memory so could what you saw have been referring to this and actually not the User drive? (It is difficult to see why such a restriction should apply to the User).

Mike......
I keep my working files on the front USB stick. It is much more straightforward then to access them on computer for utility editing, backups and file transfers in and out, and there is no occasional  conflict with USB drive names since I never use the  underneath USB drive. Like many aspects of the keyboard we don't "have" to use all the features Yamaha provides, but often they can be adapted to suit individual requirements. Keep it simple where we can
John

[vlbrgt]

In the dutch manual is written on page 105 :

Als de totale grootte van de doelgegevens voor de back-up groter is dan 1,9 GB (exclusief de audiobestanden), is de backupfunctie niet  beschikbaar. In dit geval kunt u een back-up van de gebruikersgegevens maken door elk item afzonderlijk te kopiëren.

Translated with google translate it will be :

If the total size of the Target data for the backup is larger is then 1.9 GB (excluding the audio files), is the backup function not available. In
this case you can back up the create user data by each to copy the item separately.


But really i cannot find this in the English manual
Strange

Mvg
Etienne

[zionip]

Genos Owner's Manual P. 105, under "Note" on the right, third note:

If the total size of the target data for
backup exceeds 1.9 GB (excluding
Audio files), the backup function is
not available. If this happens, back up
the User data by copying the items
individually.

Thanks,
Paul

[tyrosaurus]

Regarding the 'Too many files' message, on a Tyros model, if you try to copy/paste, to or from a USB memory device (or even the internal hard disk, which is actually connected as a USB device) using the keyboard's 'File Selection' screens, and the total number of files in all folders selected to copy exceeds the folder limit (which was 500 on Tyros4 for example), then the operation will fail with  this message.  Maybe there is a similar restriction on Genos, although presumably the limit would be 2500.

However with a Tyros, if the keyboard is connected to a computer in 'USB Storage Mode', this limit does not apply, and you can manage all files on the hard drive in a single operation if you want to.   I assume that this is the same on Genos with it's User drive mounted on a computer.  When copying whole folders this method also transfers files of all types in a folder, rather than the keyboard OS method of only copying files of the same type as the File Selection screen used to select the folders.

Regarding using the keyboard 'Back Up' function, then fair enough for keyboard settings etc., but for content files (styles, songs, etc.), I would always choose to have them backed up as individual files rather than 'encrypted' within a .BUP file, which can only be directly used with the keyboard model that produced it.


Regards

Ian

[Marcus]

There does seem to be an issue here. Yes, perhaps the " Mass Storage Mode" might be a good way to copy exact files and folder structure, and maybe when the message of too many files or folders pop up, but won't solve the issue.

The whole point of User Backup is to save or backup one's User data. If you were to have over 1.9 GB of data on the Genos User Drive, then according to the Genos manual, you cannot make a user backup file.

The User area on the Tyros 5 was very small, I think I recall around 130 MB, but adequate for file edits or creator edits you are working on at the time. All saves by default were directed to the User Drive. Also any custom user VH saves, MIDI template saves, Audio Style saves, custom voice user saves or DSP user saves. These User saves were very fairly small files and I found that roughly 100 Audio Style saves (from style creator edits) could fit in the Tyros 5  User Drive.

So basically I only used the Tyros 5 User Drive for Audio Style saves, however User backup was handy because all my User files, like MIDI template and other custom user files could be saved in a single backup file and copied to my second Tyros 5 board. This way I didn't need to recreate all my custom user data files, user MIDI templates and others. When the backup file is created it usually warns the user that Audio files and audio styles cannot be saved.

So if I wanted to copy the similar single User Backup file save from one Genos to transfer to another Genos keyboard, the User Drive data cannot exceed 1.9 GBs, yet the User Drive had a total capacity of 58 GB. So in order to make a backup file, the majority of the User Drive capacity is a total waste.

Maybe I might have to rethink and use the hidden underneath USB after all (equivalent to the Tyros 5 HD), for all my files and use the Genos User Drive pretty much as I did on my Tyros 5, for current edits or creator saves and the various custon User saves. Seems to me that Yamaha needs to explain the 1.9 GB limitation, intended purpose of the User Drive, and the point of having a 58 GB User drive capacity yet User backups cannot be made when 1.9 GB is exceeded.

Marcus

[Al Ram]

It seems to me that there is no bug or problem to fix with Genos.  It seems to me that it is only a question of user policy.

It appears (to me) that the user area is purposely intended for temporary storage for edits only. 

I have zero files in my T5 user area.   I only use it for temporary work such as edits.   Once i complete whatever work i am doing, i copy from the user area to the T5 HD where i have one folder each for registrations, external Styles, external multipads, midis, etc.   I can backup my T5 HD/folders easily.

The fact that the Genos user area is 58GB but can only be backed up if less than 2 GB are used, reinforces my thinking that Yamaha purposely intended it this way.

You can work in your user area for edits but it forces users to have your stuff in the Genos USB (equivalent to the T5 HD) where you can easily take the main USB and copy it to another USB or computer as a backup, perhaps every week or every month according to whatever is your backup policy/need. 

My two cents.

thanks 

[EileenL]

The Backup and restore features on keyboards are only designed to save a small amount such as settings etc. If you want to do a proper back up then you must attach the keyboard to the computer as we have always done via means of a printer type cable and back it up to your computer.

[keynote]

Originally posted by Marcus:

"Maybe I might have to rethink and use the hidden underneath USB after all (equivalent to the Tyros 5 HD), for all my files and use the Genos User Drive pretty much as I did on my Tyros 5, for current edits or creator saves and the various custon User saves. Seems to me that Yamaha needs to explain the 1.9 GB limitation, intended purpose of the User Drive, and the point of having a 58 GB User drive capacity yet User backups cannot be made when 1.9 GB is exceeded."

I have all my audio files contained on the memory stick underneath the Genos. In trying to do a backup I did not check to include audio files. I agree that since the User drive is 58 GB in size all the data contained therein (excluding audio files) should be able to be backed up via the USB connection on the Genos or at least a whole lot more than 1.9 GB which is paltry by comparison.

Mike

[Jørgen]

...
a printer type cable
...

Hi

I think a USB cable is a better choice...

Jørgen